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Subject: Rafale Proves Itself
SYSOP    8/7/2011 7:59:23 AM
 
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cwDeici       2/18/2012 12:48:27 AM

I really don't understand the Indian procurement process, this isn't the first time they've made an unorthodox choice. It's too bad Pakistani pilot and overall military quality isn't more equal, then we'd get a reliable result the next time they fight.

 Maybe it is more of an adequate than a mediocre aircraft as I thought.

(as I thought it was mediocre (terrible until it got AESA))
It will be interesting to see if it goes up against Chinese jets. Our planes are definitely still not as good as western products, even the Rafale, but our pilots should be able to match or exceed Indian ones.
 
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cwDeici       2/18/2012 1:16:32 AM

But but, we've been told time and time again that Rafail is nothing more than a pedestrian bombtruck with weak engines and a sightless radar ! How could the Swiss conclude anything else from their exhaustive tech eval ? 

Your link is dead...
however, I found it by myself and I'm impressed that they felt it was that good. Maybe it's an ok plane after all. It's definitely a workable plane for some purposes. Whether it is a cost effective plane time will tell, though technical posters here have made many arguments why it's not and other countries have posted bad reports (especially the UAE and Bahrain).
 
This doesn't mean that you're anything but a fanboy though. I remember just because I, a casual poster, lack respect for BW (a full-on deluded troll) and have respect for the King of Bahrain and posters criticizing the Rafale you made childish accusations I was into hero worship and fellating the King of Bahrain... that speaks for itself.  
 
How can we take seriously someone who is over the moon about a Swiss tech report, but looks down on other reports, including heads of state who studied at Sandhurst and posters who predicted the Rafale would do badly before it even went on sale?
 
The Swiss report is solid circumstantial evidence. It probably means Dassault has managed to fix most of the problems and made it an adequate plane for its immediate tasks. However it doesn't mean that all those reports about its past failures and still extant shortcomings are thereby untrue.
 
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cwDeici       2/18/2012 1:30:27 AM

          Titus Plattner......
Jan 29, 2012 12:01 PM

I'm the author of the article in the "Matin Dimanche" and the "SonntagsZeitung" / twitter: @titusplattner

@raffeur Yes, it's all includes weapons, ammo, infrastructure, etc. Simulator is not necessary, because swiss pilots will have the training slots in France.

the CHF 2.7 billions for 18 Rafale is with a change rate of CHF 1.20 for 1 euro
the CHF 4.0 billions for 22 Rafale was calculated with a change rate of 1.30 for 1 euro, as asked by the Swiss Federal departement of finance
that means that Dassault (who wants to be paid in euro) made a discount of about 15%.

The swiss evaluation had ten modules. The Rafale won the two flight modules (flight tests + projected flight capabilities).

The Rafale also won the module about the ability to maintain a an alert status during a long period, and the module about military cooperation.

For the noise pollution module, the three competitors had about the same score. These results are public:
http://www.offiziere.ch/wp-content/uploads/TTE091202LaermBriefingD_08_40009428255.ppt&ei=b6AlT9XbKIm4-AbP6dylCQ&sig2=biVWMTEDO6Gybk02F2kV1w&ct=w<br" />< a="" />link />
This is also the case for the industrial cooperation module. EADS, Dassault and Saab had about the same score. But Saab has more contracts with Ruag, (100% state owned).

The five other modules are unknown yet. But there is a financial module, a module about the "Eignung" (adequacy to Switzerland - infrastructure). I guess there were also weapon module and an avionics module. And a module about about aircraft maintenance

Gripen won the financial module and the module about aircraft maintenance costs. These two scores allowed the Gripen to (just) reach the minimal note of 6/10.

If you have any infos for me, please contact me at [email protected]

GAME OVER about swiss tech eval


That's very interesting, but reproducing the report when available would be much better than referencing an article writer. Also, this isn't really the place for cartoon clichees of the Gripen being assembled like IKEA furniture (not that I don't appreciate the joke, being part Norwegian).
Regardless, whether the Rafale is better or not, the sale of the Gripen is probably going through.
It'd be a pity if it happened because of price or corruption (I find it hard to believe the Swedes would be corrupt though).
 
Welp, that's enough internet drama for me for a few months.
 
Flame on Das Kardinal, fight for 'your' plane! Maybe someday, through defending him, you can become best friends with BW. :)
 
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cwDeici       2/18/2012 1:46:50 AM
Whatever happened to all the other French Rafale-fans anyway? Long time passing...
 
Every time I bump in here the last few years it's just been BW 100% of the time (with a break at one point in time), Das Kardinal 90% of the time ever since a fewa years ago and a random interchangable pro-Rafale poster going up against Herald, GfAussie, some others who dislike it and one of the old forum hands (Reactive?) telling both sides to cool down and defending the plane as adequate.
 
No offense to the ones attacking it or saying it's an adequate plane, you all seem to participate on other subjects. But the pro-Rafale ones (congrats on the sale!) all seem to talk only about the plane and little else if anything. I dunno, maybe you're normal people in real life.
 
It will be interesting to see what the Rafale subject is about next time (good or bad?) and who is talking about it. I'd advise everyone to take a break until then. :)
 
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halloweene    hi cw   2/18/2012 3:25:49 AM
Its pretty hard sometimes not to become fanatic when you hear so rash insults etc about you fellows.
And many false assumptions were done about Rafale for years. So one can understand  french posters caould be sometimes agressive.
Some of the false assumptions for example : Rafale is slow. operational speed in AdlA 1.8 mach. Of Typhoon in RAF : mach 1.8. (altho given mach 2 by EADS, you can check on RAF  site)
"It is not able to supercruise"
PESA radar is crap : check swiss eval, it was quoted higher then captor-M
Spectra is crap, again check swiss eval and how it was quoted vs DASS.
 
Etc. Here is a more detailed pdf (altho uncomplete of swiss eval. http://files.newsnetz.ch/uploa...
For your information (as it has been disclosed in "La Tribune"), Rafale is back in UAE and several officers and officials from UAE are at St Cloud (Dassault Headquarters) for a few weeks now.
Cheers
 
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Das Kardinal       2/18/2012 8:16:45 PM
Those criticisms are now obsolete. War operations and multinational competitions showed the plane's qualities. You may choose to ignore those and instead plug your ears, go "lalala, can't hear you, you must be a fanboy". Or look for alternative reasons more suitable to your bias, like "there must be corruption" "the Indians are incompetent". When Occam's truth is, the Rafale, as a system (the plane and its weapons) delivers.
 
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Das Kardinal       2/18/2012 8:18:53 PM
Dinky forum software ate half my answer and I can't be bothered to rewrite it. Seriously, "optimized for Internet Explorer", gee, we're not in 1999 anymore...
 
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gf0012-aust       2/18/2012 9:50:13 PM


correction.  I don't dislike the plane at all.  it was the flogging a dead horse discussions and making claims about technology sets that drove me to tears.  I have discussions about Rafale etc on other forums where the nationalistic nonsense from any country is not tolerated.  french, russian, american, australian, chinese fanbois aren't welcome there.  Hence real debate becomes possible.
 
I've been on this forum since 1997, I think I might ne an old hand. 
 
feel free to go back to any of my posts on Rafale and point out where I have criticised it beyond the context of disclaiming another posters claims about signature management, ewarfare capability, load out claims etc...  my comments have been directed to claims made about tech sets on the plane which were and are still incorrect (eg the spectra and sig management debates)
 
btw, I congratulated the french on here not long ago.
 
its a plane, its a sale, we're not discussing world peace and moral conduct convergence 
 
 
 
 
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halloweene       2/19/2012 3:00:31 PM
I wasnt targeting you gf...
 
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earlm       2/19/2012 4:56:03 PM
The most interesting bit I've seen on Rafale is the the Swiss evaluation.  They put it higher than Typhoon in almost all areas.  Makes you rethink things.
 
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