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Subject: Rafale Proves Itself
SYSOP    8/7/2011 7:59:23 AM
 
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45-Shooter    Why on Earth would you want to?   12/29/2011 3:47:40 PM

 

I know that the F-16 Blk50/52/60 FCS software Cat I is limited to 9gs only with a possible override emergency . Can a Viper stay on override and full AB for 2 or 3 minutes just to try to keep up with a Rafale circling around ?

 

Cheers .

 

 
 


 
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heraldabc    There is NO NEED.   12/29/2011 4:17:40 PM
The AMRAAM and the Sidewinder both out-turn the Squall and outperform the MICA it carries by an order of magnitude.. Solve it in the weapon NOT the launch platform.
 
H.




 



I know that the F-16 Blk50/52/60 FCS software Cat I is limited to 9gs only with a possible override emergency . Can a Viper stay on override and full AB for 2 or 3 minutes just to try to keep up with a Rafale circling around ?



 



Cheers .



 



 
 


 
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gf0012-aust       12/29/2011 6:09:31 PM

I know that the F-16 Blk50/52/60 FCS software Cat I is limited to 9gs only with a possible override emergency . Can a Viper stay on override and full AB for 2 or 3 minutes just to try to keep up with a Rafale circling around ?


frame alerts are just that, they're at the designated g limit as a safety margin.  its not a gate unless system managed

 
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gf0012-aust       12/29/2011 6:12:39 PM

 Solve it in the weapon NOT the launch platform.


absolutely.  its the same nonsense when others get excited over hypersonic platforms - the developments are about hypersonic weapons

its about capability delivery, its not a platform centric issue

 
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45-Shooter       12/29/2011 9:11:49 PM
 Solve it in the weapon NOT the launch platform.
Right! But most telling of all the arguments in this thread, is that last week, this month on the 24th of December, just last week, Oman bought more F-16s instead of deeply discounted Rafales! Just last week! (Kind of whent over board there! Think sacazm again!)
The question then becomes; If the Rafale at below market prices, can't out market the F-16 does it really do any of the things claimed for it? Because if it did, WHY HAS NO ONE BOUGHT IT?

 
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breaka    @45-shooter   12/31/2011 11:50:07 AM
Shooter,
 
- I guess I wasn't clear enough in my post, but if you actually read the notes I put on the engine comparison, the F110-GE-132 and F100-PW-232 measure their time to overhaul in cycles, while the M88-2stage4 was measured in hours.  It was given as 600 with a goal of 1,000 (the original motor was only getting 300hrs).  My point was, if someone was ham-fisting it like you think you would and getting 10-12 cycles in 15-20 minutes, then they equivalent flying hours on the engine would go way down before inspection.  Since the original Rafale's were the air-to-air F1's, they may have done a lot more BFM/ACM and cycled harder than anticipated, especially compared to an F-8 that they probably parked in burner for the entire fight.  The F-15 community encountered this with the original F-100-100.  With their much better energy management, they were actually having to reduce power more than an F-4 would, and were working the engines harder (plus the pre-FADEC turbo-fans tended to compressor stall if thrown around a lot at high AOA).
- Not sure about F-110 or M-88 times, but for the F-100s Janes list about 4 seconds idle to max for the -229 & -220 (although the -229 has a steeper curve early), and about 7 seconds for the -100.
- I'm very familiar with Col Boyd & his reputation.  Keep in mind, there is a lot more to doing actual BFM setups then what you see in the simulator, and Col Boyd's legend was built on a Hun v Hun, last ditch type maneuver.  He started out at 30,000' and 400+ knots with the offender only 500' back and going for guns - this put in a position where the attacker had lots of energy, needed to go for lead for a gun shot & had a severe closure problem with the flat plating move that Boyd would do to create angles & closure problems.  Because of his ability to keep the stick frozen and work the rudders for control at low speed/hi-AOA, he operated in a region where other Hun drivers were afraid to operate - it was notorious for the adverse yaw/spin problem associated with the swept wing design.  In the modern era, if someone already got that close, missiles would have been in the air long ago, it it's probably a mature fight that has descended and degraded to a low speed fight near the floor.  It was a good last ditch maneuver, but undoable just a few 100' above ground, not to mention would leave you out of energy to engage any other bandits hawking the fight.  Basically, he was doing the Hun equivalent of the Cobra.
 
 
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heraldabc    Some clarification. Note comments in red.   12/31/2011 1:02:32 PM

Shooter,

 

  • I guess I wasn't clear enough in my post, but if you actually read the notes I put on the engine comparison, the F110-GE-132 and F100-PW-232 measure their time to overhaul in cycles, while the M88-2stage4 was measured in hours.  It [the M-88, H] was given as 600 with a goal of 1,000 (the original motor was only getting 300hrs).  My point was, if someone was ham-fisting it like you think you would end getting 10-12 cycles in 15-20 minutes, then the equivalent flying hours on the engine would go way down before inspection.  Since the original Rafale's were the air-to-air F1's, they may have done a lot more BFM/ACM and cycled harder than anticipated, especially compared to an F-8 that they probably parked in burner for the entire fight.  The F-15 community encountered this with the original F-100-100.  With their much better energy management, they were actually having to reduce power more than an F-4 would, and were working the engines harder (plus the pre-FADEC turbo-fans tended to compressor stall if thrown around a lot at high AOA). [All too true as the French continue to find out with the SNECMA M-88. H.]

  • Not sure about F-110 or M-88 times, but for the F-100s Jane's list about 4 seconds idle to max for the -229 & -220 (although the -229 has a steeper curve early), and about 7 seconds for the -100.

  • I'm very familiar with Col Boyd & his reputation. (Keep in mind, there is a lot more to doing actual BFM setups then what you see in the simulator), and Col Boyd's legend was built on a Hun v Hun, last ditch type maneuver.  He started out at 30,000' and 400+ knots with the offender only 500' back and going for guns - this put in a position where the attacker had lots of energy, needed to go for lead for a gun shot & had a severe closure problem with the flat plating move that Boyd would do to create angles & closure problems.  Because of his ability to keep the stick frozen and work the rudders for control at low speed/hi-AOA, he operated in a region where other Hun drivers were afraid to operate - it was notorious for the adverse yaw/spin problem associated with the swept wing design. [Dutch roll, H.] In the modern era, if someone already got that close, missiles would have been in the air long ago, it it's probably a mature fight that has descended and degraded to a low speed fight near the floor.  It was a good last ditch maneuver, but undoable just a few 100' above ground, not to mention would leave you out of energy to engage any other bandits hawking the fight.  Basically, he was doing the Hun equivalent of the Cobra.


  • Part 1.



 
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heraldabc    Some clarification. Note comments in red.   12/31/2011 1:03:30 PM
  • [IN BLUNT ENGLISH; Boyd stunted you in a one on one in a special case with a cheap trick. If you knew what to expect him to do, you'd peel out of his setup once you lost first sight of him try for separation and an immediate altitude advantage, put some distance of interval on him and re-engage him when you had that more separation and the better energy margin on him, to keep your angle solution on him when you reacquired, and fox him when he initially tried to cause your overshoot, In a gun fight, take him vertical after he pulls that stunt on you. Zoom him out and then laugh as you roll in for the kill. Its all about energy. H.] . That great low speed energy gun gimmick is USELESS in a missile fight.

Part 2.

H.
 
 
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breaka       12/31/2011 3:23:50 PM
I stayed away from calling it a gimmick because it was very effective for the situation - but even Boyd would regard it as a last ditch maneuver more than a going in game plan.  It's not energy conserving, but it is max performing the Hun and does fit nicely with the whole OODA loop/get inside your opponents decision - he rapidly changed energy state and direction faster than his opponent (who would probably have gone into a spin if he tried to match).  Some of the Red Eagles learned to do similar moves with MiGs, and probably scared themselves a few times in the process.
 
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heraldabc    Your link is garbled    12/31/2011 3:57:05 PM
but I think your prime information source is here. ...
 
H.
 
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