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Subject: Rafale Proves Itself
SYSOP    8/7/2011 7:59:23 AM
 
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BWisBack       12/20/2011 6:08:39 PM
Reactive :
 
""Dogfighting is a failure mode, it's what happens when your primary strategy goes badly wrong ""
 
Negative . Futur will show that dogfighting will become more and more important because of the progesses made in electronic deception . In few years , killing someone BVR will be a rare thing (like it has always been) . What people don 't really understand is that next generation BVR missiles like the Meteor will mostly be used against big , slow and important assets like AWACs and Tankers . 
Unless small and powerful enough Aesa radars for missiles are fielded , the actual RF seekers can 't do much vs top notch ECMs like Spectra or Praetorian . Same with the F-22 , actual RF seekers have a hell of a time to "lock" such LO plane .
As I said MANY times before , detecting someone is one thing  , killing it is a different story .
 
Cheers .
 
 
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BWisBack       12/20/2011 6:26:19 PM
Reactive :
 
""BW, properties of Deltas are not magical, not unknown, not mystical, they have an energy-bleed penalty on sustained turns, even the EF has shortcomings in this regard.""
 
Again , you underestimate some designs . Maybe we should talk about what matters : cornering speed .
What is the max speed aircraft "X" can sustain when cornering ? That is a good question , don 't you think ?
 
Well , the first to give credible numbers gets a cookie and a cigar , ok ?
 
I start : Rafale : 360 knots .
 
Cheers .
 
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45-Shooter    More Cherry Picking and obfusifcation!   12/20/2011 7:02:45 PM
Now , let me give you the OPERATIONAL rate of climb for the three fighters :
F-15 : 254 m/s
Rafale : 305 m/s
Typhoon : 315 m/s
 
When an aircraft try to brake a record , it is PREPARED for . Some if not all the avionics are gone , the onboard fuel is calculated to be exactly what the fighter needs to brake the record , etc ...
 

Operational to what condition? You see this is, these numbers that is, just one more instance of comparing apples and tomatoes.

The number sited WRT the F-15 is with the so called "Standard Operational Configuration" as are the numbers for the other two planes! It is just that those "Operational Conditions" are very different for the three planes! The standard condition for the F-15 is the CL tank, eight missiles and 940 rounds of 20 mm Cannon ammo. The same condition for the other two planes is four to six missiles, half to 1/3rd as much cannon ammo in seconds of fire and less than 10% in effects of fire and no external tanks! If the two Euro-Canards were required to perform the same weight of load and RADIUS OF MISSION, they would be toting three Drop Tanks and two extra missiles! Exactly what are those climb numbers?

Secondly, you are exactly correct in that all record flights are prep'd to the max. What keeps Dasault and Euro-Fighter from prepping their planes to the same standard? IE, little or no paint, restricted fuel and full avionics! There are weight and balance issues that prevent any of these planes from flight WO the big hunk of radar mass out in the nose! It's just not possible! Way back when the Tornado was new and the radar was not ready, they flew to present the impression they were ready for combat in the cold war, with half a tonne of CONCRETE in the nose! So why have none of the Euro-Canards even made noises about trying for it? If Rafale or Typhoon could come even close, it would be a marketing coupe'!!! How about it? Remember that the records were set with less powerful engines than they have now! Just how bad do you think the -15 would spank them all with almost 20,000 more pounds of thrust? RIGHT!

 
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45-Shooter    Are you ever mistaken!   12/20/2011 7:45:59 PM
Reactive :

""Dogfighting is a failure mode, it's what happens when your primary strategy goes badly wrong ""
Negative . Futur will show that dogfighting will become more and more important because of the progesses made in electronic deception . In few years , killing someone BVR will be a rare thing (like it has always been) . What people don 't really understand is that next generation BVR missiles like the Meteor will mostly be used against big , slow and important assets like AWACs and Tankers . 

Unless small and powerful enough Aesa radars for missiles are fielded , the actual RF seekers can 't do much vs top notch ECMs like Spectra or Praetorian . Same with the F-22 , actual RF seekers have a hell of a time to "lock" such LO plane .

As I said MANY times before , detecting someone is one thing  , killing it is a different story . 

Cheers . 

What a piece of crapola! Sensors and Scanners are getting better by the week and ECM is falling farther and farther behind! Since LO is Freq dependant and it is absolutely imposable to make what works at low Freq, work at high Freqs and anything that fits in the middle is crapola on both ends! What is happening is that ever larger loads of Avionics are going to be required in the future. It is one of the reasons why the F-35 is so large. So as to be able to install ever larger loads of Avionics. LO is only important Vs small radars, ie missiles and fighter sized radars. WO LO all other planes are nothing more than cannon fodder suitable only for using up the missiles on the shooters planes!

 
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45-Shooter    Are you ever mistaken!   12/20/2011 7:49:07 PM


Reactive :

 

""BW, properties of Deltas are not magical, not unknown, not mystical, they have an energy-bleed penalty on sustained turns, even the EF has shortcomings in this regard.""

 

Again , you underestimate some designs . Maybe we should talk about what matters : cornering speed .

What is the max speed aircraft "X" can sustain when cornering ? That is a good question , don 't you think ?

 

Well , the first to give credible numbers gets a cookie and a cigar , ok ?

 

I start : Rafale : 360 knots .

 

Cheers .



The F-16 has a sustained corner speed of 400 Kts.
 
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heraldabc    Two hoiurs on the Internet...   12/20/2011 8:05:09 PM
and THAT is the garbage you come up with? A false challenge is a false challenge.
 
 
Maximum instantaneous turn rate for the Raf ale is about 30.0 degrees a second; sustained turn on a Rafale is 24 degrees per second at about 175 m/s. The maximum sustained turn rate on the F-16 C is what again?  Something like 18 degrees a second at speeds above 225 m/s.
 
 
 
 

Now i wonder how Rafale usually spanks F16 ass in dogfight exercises (not talking about M2K-9 doing it daily in UAE) as it has so crappy aerodynamics. Googling canards drag, reading the introduction of a paper then spamming it as a clue wont bring you anywhere. Plz try first to understand the concept of close coupled canards, then we can talk.

And as far as you are concerned:
 
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/rafale/images/rafale1.jpg" height="481" width="500" /> 
 
http://files.air-attack.com/MIL/f16/f16_cas2.jpg" height="313" width="497" /> 
 
DUMB doesn't even begin to describe your statements.
 
H.
 
 
 
 
 
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heraldabc    In case you didn't understand it, Hollow.   12/20/2011 8:14:37 PM
The Rafale turns best at 350-370 knots, the F-16 turns best at 400-430 knots.
 
He who is faster in the air WINS AND GETS TO HIS RELEASE POINT FIRST, always; because he can accept or refuse the shot at will-especially in A TURNING FIGHT. 
 
Have a good night, clay pidgeons. Reactive, you have a good night, too.
 
H.

 

H.

 

 

 

 

 
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Aussiegunneragain    An advertisement that I was recently inspired by ...   12/20/2011 11:18:16 PM
... and I reckon it might be of interest to some of you boys too.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iWvlZHJg1Q" target="_blank">link
 
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breaka    You guys are killing me   12/20/2011 11:46:31 PM
OK, talking about performance and you are throwing out a bunch of numbers without reference.  When talking about what the maximum turn rates are for an aircraft, it is very dependent on altitude and configuration.  All aircraft will have a much slower turn rate at 20k ft then at sea level, whereas their maximum and minimum speeds will both be higher - but the amount of change varies with each aircraft.  To point to one data point is just as deceptive as stating the RCS for an aircraft is one specific number.
 
Second, when talking airspeeds, it helps to know if you are talking True or Calibrated.  At sea level, not much difference, but at altitude True can be considerably higher than Cal.  Mach number also comes in to play, especially for swept wing aircraft with "thumbprint"s in their allowable G.
 
Third, when talking about the "max speed an aircraft can maintain while cornering" I assume you are asking what it's sustained corner velocity is?  If so, then the question is really is a combination of highest G's for lowest speeds in order to get the best sustained turn rate/radius.  For a given G, rate decreases proportionally with speed increase, and radius increases as a square function.  Over at F-16 net there are some good F-16 and F-4 EM diagrams... to show this point.  It's also good for showing to some people that don't understand how an airshow max rate and min radius turn demos are apples and oranges for comparing capabilities.  There may be times to be above sustained corner velocity in a rate fight, but either you will have to pull more Gs (which will bleed off speed) or you will open up your turn and slow your rate.
 
 
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breaka    Interpreting the Data   12/21/2011 12:05:04 AM
So what this tells me is that the Mirage 2000-5 is consistently the worst performing aircraft of the group, that all of the F-teens that you say the Mirage "smacks around" beat it in all categories by a significant margin, and the the Rafale only has a slight advantage the the much older F/A-18?  Is that why the UAE can't wait to get rid of their Mirage 2000s?
 
The fact of the matter is, their is a lot of missing details on the chart to put it in context and I find quite a bit of it questionable.

I told you that as long as I was going to be there , BS would not be tolerated . 

 

You have nothing but hot air , nothing but hot air .

Same wrt aerodynamism , you know jack . The Rafale beats the F-16 in all the flight enveloppes you can think of . Its acceleration (the part where drag is very important) is better than the F-16 . I will go as far as posting a stuff from the Eurofighter team :

 


http://i41.tinypic.com/xft66h.jpg" /> 

I could have posted Dassault numbers , they are very similar .

Now , are you trying to tell us that a Nimitz can launch 340 sorties per day ??! And that for a week ??!

You 're a sad clown

 

Cheers .


 
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