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Subject: Rafale Proves Itself
SYSOP    8/7/2011 7:59:23 AM
 
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Kovy       8/20/2011 5:55:36 PM
Ok, you found nothing to back your lies about Benghazi so you switch to Tripoli. How convenient.
BTW, do you really want to start a friendly fire contest ? Shall we talk about the USAF records in Afghanistan ?
 
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Eliendhal       8/29/2011 8:27:45 PM
Mr Hamilcar21 said :
"there was USN jammer support" 
 
He is correct . The USN moved 5 SH Growler from Irak to (undisclosed place) mid March .
From US DoD :
h*tp://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=63272
 
Interestingly , one Growler has also been seen at Solenzara airbase (Corsica , France) mid March .
Now , these Growlers were not participating during the first day strikes because the French did not want them there .
The reason is still unknown to me at this point but I guess that they didn 't want the Growlers there for discretion purpose and maybe for not messing around with Rafale 's own systems . 
The fact is that the French more or less knew what Libyan systems they were going to face and they knew that Rafale could deal with them (they did indeed).
From various reports coming from the French MoD , french pilots and NATO , the aircraft seems to be very effective at SEAD/DEAD .
 
What I would like to know more about is how they run this particulary mission , stuff like flight profiles , attitude , altitude , etc .
 
Mr Hamilcar21 , when you read french general Longuet on Rafale over Libya , you wrote :
"Propaganda. Await USAF assessment of air campaign, which I expect will be savagely critical of NATO efforts."
 
You show how biased you are and how very little credit can be given to you . Why don 't you find out by yourself ?
It is easy you know , you just have to read NATO daily logs , there :
h*tp://www.nato.int/cps/en/SID-00040CE9-06CBBD24/natolive/news_71994.htm
 
From March 1st 00.00H to today .
 
 
 
 
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Aussiegunneragain       8/29/2011 10:34:32 PM
I don't suppose that it has occurred to anybody that there isn't an air campaign by Western Forces since the advent of the teen series that didn't involve dominance by the Western side in force multipliers like AWACS and EW? I don't think there is even a mission since GW1 that didn't involve the enemy IADS being dismembered by TLAMS. Even the Israelis benefitted from superior EW and from being the only side with AWACS in the Bekea. In that sense if the presence of these assets in Libya means that the Rafale hasn't "proven" itself, neither has the F-15 or F-18, only the F-14 has in Iranian hands and the F-16 in Pakistani.
 
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bettyford       8/30/2011 6:30:37 AM
When I look at India what I see is a maintenance nightmare. How many different suppliers are there and from how many countries. And now they will try to introduce another plane and systems. 
 
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Eliendhal       8/30/2011 11:44:45 AM
I agree with you bettyford and it is why I think India may favor the french aircraft .
They already have a fleet of Mirage 2000s (recently updated but not for cheap) so the maintenance of Rafale should be a breeze for them . Add to this the common weaponry (more or less) , the much praised AASM , etc .
We 'll see ...
 
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giblets       8/30/2011 12:14:07 PM


Except the Falklands campaign, which did show the need for the the RN to have radar control ( on a Seaking helicopter).
 
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giblets       8/30/2011 12:15:21 PM
Sorry, the quote thing didn't seem to work there, that was in reply to Aussiegunneragain
 
"
I don't suppose that it has occurred to anybody that there isn't an air campaign by Western Forces since the advent of the teen series that didn't involve dominance by the Western side in force multipliers like AWACS and EW?" 
 
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Reactive       8/30/2011 1:41:15 PM

What it really depends on is what they're actually looking for from this contract - whether they want to have a capable strike aircraft (in which case why not F-16IN) or a highly capable air superiority fighter - there is no getting around the fact that the EF's capabilities in a strike role are limited certainly in what is currently deployed (tranche3a & AESA should address some of the shortcomings) but on the other hand it does offer superb AA performance, sustained supercruise capability, towed decoy jammers and so on - it also offers inroads to UK/German/Italian TOT and investment and simply due the number of platforms already deployed a reasonable through-life upgrade schedule.
 
The Indians have been burned countless times with Russian procurement, that will likely happen with the T-50 - Buying Rafale at this stage does make sense if they have confidence that this (T-50) platform will deliver in the future air superiority/top cover role, they won't get access to the F-35 program but it's not especially clear, for the majority of roles they would realistically task it with whether it (rafale) represents a major performance boost over the F-teens or Mirages etc.
 
The basic logic you can apply is that the EF is an world-class air-superiority asset - the Rafale a world-class strike asset, but neither are world-class at both roles.
 
It does appear like they're trying to get as much TOT from all vendors as possible, the US doesn't play ball there, EADS does to a somewhat limited degree and France is offering complete access - if TOT and offset investment is really what they're looking for (and I think that's evident in the downselect) then quite honestly it's less about the platform/support requirements and there's a real chance they'll buy a limited number of both AC - yes it doesn't make sense on any level with logistics but they seem to be "lose" in that respect - this contract is entirely about technology transfer as far as I can tell. 
 
Then there's the possibility (thanks to indian politics) that the whole thing will be cancelled and companies will be asked to resubmit at some point in the future - That's India for you, by all accounts, like doing business with a slug on valium.
 
R
 
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Eliendhal       8/30/2011 7:13:42 PM
Reactive said :
"What it really depends on is what they're actually looking for from this contract - whether they want to have a capable strike aircraft (in which case why not F-16IN) or a highly capable air superiority fighter"
 
They want more than that I believe , they want an aircraft capable to do both tasks and the best ToT they can get .
Nowadays , an aircraft can 't be anymore an interceptor or a bomber , it has to be able to fill both tasks . plus some more like Recon , SEAD , CAS , Intel gathering , etc . They also look at what possible futur capabilities are planned or foreseen by the manufacturer . 
"Multirole" , "swingrole" , "omnirole" is what is required today because it cost less to buy and to maintain than running different various airframes . 
The American aircraft lost on technicals and ToT , the Mig-35 lost purely on technicals , Gripen-NG doesn 't exist yet . What is left is two newer built aircraft with a greater updating potential , more futurproof . 
One is late , the other is already a full multirole and it 's important for a buyer because it demonstrates that the technology emloyed is working , which means less fundings and less incertitudes with regards to the final product .
 
That doesn 't mean the French aircraft will be choosen but personaly I think it has a small edge , then the ToT factor favors the French , the maintenance line favors the French , the price favors the French and I would go as far as saying that the technicals also favor the French  , it has been printed in the Indian press :
 
"“Rafale figures a notch higher than Typhoon in terms of performance and involves easier adaptability as it is logistically and operationally similar to Mirage-2000, used extensively by our boys during the Kargil conflict in 1999. The French government has also cleared the technology transfer, including the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar,” sources in the IAF told Deccan Chronicle."
 
I see the Eurofighter as the outsider . 
Reactive :
"Then there's the possibility (thanks to indian politics) that the whole thing will be cancelled and companies will be asked to resubmit at some point in the future"
 
I don 't think it is going to happen .
 
 
 
 
 
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Reactive       8/30/2011 11:15:14 PM
Reactive said :
"What it really depends on is what they're actually looking for from this contract - whether they want to have a capable strike aircraft (in which case why not F-16IN) or a highly capable air superiority fighter"
 
They want more than that I believe , they want an aircraft capable to do both tasks and the best ToT they can get .
Nowadays , an aircraft can 't be anymore an interceptor or a bomber , it has to be able to fill both tasks . plus some more like Recon , SEAD , CAS , Intel gathering , etc . They also look at what possible futur capabilities are planned or foreseen by the manufacturer . 
"Multirole" , "swingrole" , "omnirole" is what is required today because it cost less to buy and to maintain than running different various airframes . 
 
I disagree entirely - WRT air superiority, it is never a niche that Rafale will fill adequately when up against aircraft with more powerful sensors and kinematic capabilities - Rafale will never be a strong BVR airframe and typhoon is unlikely to ever form a particularly convincing strike package - India does have the future T-50 as I said, which arguably fills the Role that EF was designed to.
 
 
The American aircraft lost on technicals and ToT ,
 
They lost because they aren't so desperate for a sale that they'll agree to TOT and also because they snubbed India on the F-35, it says a lot that ANY western manufacture is willing to give full TOT. EADS certainly wont.
 
the Mig-35 lost purely on technicals , Gripen-NG doesn 't exist yet . What is left is two newer built aircraft with a greater updating potential , more futurproof . 
One is late , the other is already a full multirole and it 's important for a buyer because it demonstrates that the technology emloyed is working , which means less fundings and less incertitudes with regards to the final product .
 
But it's a multirole platform which is far less capable (survivable) when used as an air-to-air platform, depending on how important that consideration is I would agree that it fits their needs - when you compare it to an aircraft with a larger array, supercruise, a higher operating altitude and long-range thermal imaging it does come up short, as you say, the Rafale IS clearly a better multirole platform (and it is MRCA afterall), I just wonder whether or not the goalposts have shifted in relation to the threat (i.e. to a stronger AA platform).
 
That doesn 't mean the French aircraft will be choosen but personaly I think it has a small edge , then the ToT factor favors the French , the maintenance line favors the French , the price favors the French and I would go as far as saying that the technicals also favor the French  , it has been printed in the Indian press :
 
But what doesn't favour the french is that they have a far smaller offset potential and global economic clout relative to the Eurofighter consortium, they also have a demonstrably uncertain upgrade schedule with the Rafale and a notable absense of operators (Brazil now looks unlikely).
 
"“Rafale figures a notch higher than Typhoon in terms of performance and involves easier adaptability as it is logistically and operationally similar to Mirage-2000, used extensively by our boys during the Kargil conflict in 1999. The French government has also cleared the technology transfer, including the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar,” sources in the IAF told Deccan Chronicle."
 
But they've said all sorts of contradictory things that have been quoted, always uncited , we also heard that EF was way ahead in the performance indicators. I take everything I read from the Indian press with a pinch of salt as it generally sounds even by western standards conflicting and confused.
 
I see the Eurofighter as the outsider . 
Reactive :
"Then there's the possibility (thanks to indian politics) that the whole thing will be cancelled and companies will be asked to resubmit at some point in the future"
 
 
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