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Subject: T-50 / PAK-FA: one year anniversary of the first flight and new documentary
Primorsky    1/29/2011 5:45:35 AM
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Primorsky       1/29/2011 5:50:41 AM
 
http://video.rutube.ru/161f9887a5800237c7f75533d4e7b903" wmode="window" allowfullscreen="true" flashvars="uid=2935637">
 
(PAK-FA story since 5:00)
 

Some assertions from the documentary:

- Work on "second stage" engine(featured with a increased thrust, stealthy nozzles etc.) for PAK-FA should be started in 2011 with consolidation of whole Russia's engine manufacturing industry

- PAK-FA maneuverability capabilities should be significantly better compared to 4th generation fighter jets

- Self-diagnose systems in most critical parts and components of an aircraft

- A widely usage of advanced composite materials. PAK-FA's airframe has four times less parts compared to Su-27(T-10) series aircraft

- VVS (air force) is planning to finish preliminary fighter jet by 2012 and general trials by 2015

- More than 50 aircraft are planned for the first PAK-FA procurement party

- Russia's Ministry of Defense put higher requirements on PAK-FA program than Americans had put into their 5th-generation fighter jet program (more likely they refered to F-22 program)

- Second flying prototype was built in the end of 2010, then also two prototypes should be build in 2011

- First flying prototype is equipped with a most of 5th generation navigation an indication systems that were developed for PAK-FA program

- Third and fourth aircraft should be equipped with a full electronics package required by Ministry of Defense (it could be interpreted as radars, weapon systems, IRST, ECM...)

- One PAK-FA should be approximately equal in combat to three 4++ generation fighter jets

- Stealth capability was a primary requirement in design and research(airframe, materials etc.). But these 16 test flights(the number of flights up to June 2010) of the T-50-1 were nothing to do with a trials of stealth technology.

- PAK-FA would get new generation of air-air missiles (R-77 and R-73 successors more likely) that also incudes ultra-long range missile (~400 km range, the R-73 successor) in its compartments (internal bays).

 
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heraldabc       1/29/2011 10:32:22 AM

 

http://video.rutube.ru/161f9887a5800237c7f75533d4e7b903" wmode="window" allowfullscreen="true" flashvars="uid=2935637" height="353" width="470">
 

(PAK-FA story since 5:00)

 


Some assertions from the documentary:


- Work on "second stage" engine(featured with a increased thrust, stealthy nozzles etc.) for PAK-FA should be started in 2011 with consolidation of whole Russia's engine manufacturing industry


- PAK-FA maneuverability capabilities should be significantly better compared to 4th generation fighter jets


- Self-diagnose systems in most critical parts and components of an aircraft


- A widely usage of advanced composite materials. PAK-FA's airframe has four times less parts compared to Su-27(T-10) series aircraft


- VVS (air force) is planning to finish preliminary fighter jet by 2012 and general trials by 2015


- More than 50 aircraft are planned for the first PAK-FA procurement party


- Russia's Ministry of Defense put higher requirements on PAK-FA program than Americans had put into their 5th-generation fighter jet program (more likely they refered to F-22 program)


- Second flying prototype was built in the end of 2010, then also two prototypes should be build in 2011


- First flying prototype is equipped with a most of 5th generation navigation an indication systems that were developed for PAK-FA program


- Third and fourth aircraft should be equipped with a full electronics package required by Ministry of Defense (it could be interpreted as radars, weapon systems, IRST, ECM...)


- One PAK-FA should be approximately equal in combat to three 4++ generation fighter jets


- Stealth capability was a primary requirement in design and research(airframe, materials etc.). But these 16 test flights(the number of flights up to June 2010) of the T-50-1 were nothing to do with a trials of stealth technology.


- PAK-FA would get new generation of air-air missiles (R-77 and R-73 successors more likely) that also incudes ultra-long range missile (~400 km range, the R-73 successor) in its compartments (internal bays).




Most of that fluff is propaganda, but the claims about the new engine and composites is real enough. The AWACs killer missile is nonsense, but not the work on a new medium range dual impulse (boost-sustain) candle burn rocket.
 
Might be true that the Russians are working on a two stage air to air missile. Good luck with that one. Russian OTH bounce telemetry is still fairly crappy. 
   
H.
 
 
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Primorsky       1/29/2011 1:48:02 PM

heraldabc

>Most of that fluff is propaganda, but the claims about the new engine and composites is real enough.

Can you explain your assumption why these claims are fluff and propaganda?


>The AWACs killer missile is nonsense, but not the work on a new medium range dual impulse (boost-sustain) candle burn rocket. Might be true that the Russians are working on a two stage air to air missile. Good luck with that one.

The "AWACs" killer missile is not nonsense. On the MiG-31 exercises in 1994, certain target was succesfully engaged and destroyed by R-37 missile at the ~300 km range. The R-37 successor for PAK-FA internal bays known as "Izdelie 810" is in development. According to early reports from manufacter, it has 1.5 more range and other improvements (such as max alitutude of target ~40 km) compared to original R-37.

Missiles with a dual impulse motor? Maybe. Internal weapons bays on PAK-FA are long enough to carry those.
The actual data on PAK-FA missiles still classified.
KTRV Corp.(Russia's aircraft missile manufacturers holding company) CEO talked about new air-air missiles with a remarkable increased range exceeding all other missiles in air-air class. KTRV CEO refered to some new short-range and middle-range AAMs with significantly improved range (up to two times longer effective distance of launch).

 



 
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earlm       1/29/2011 6:49:10 PM
AWACS killer missile is nonsense because it can't work.
 
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heraldabc       1/29/2011 7:40:11 PM

heraldab


>Most of that fluff is propaganda, but the claims about the new engine and composites is real enough.

Can you explain your assumption why these claims are fluff and propaganda?

That marketing (and it is marketing) is the same exact exaggeration, word for word, that Sukhoi has used in the past. The claims of more stringent requirements for the Pak Fa over ab F-22, for example, is meaningless noise. The implicit assumptions are that the Russians understand what a US Air Force requirement is or what the F-22 actually can do, neither which is a true statement, since a Russian aviation engineer does not think like an American, nor does a Russian technologist think like an American (nor is he supposed to do so) .

The Russian aviation requirement is drawn up for Russian needs as it properly is supposed to be. Within the limits of Russian technology, the result (the Pak Fa) is different. It is not better, just different, I assure you. If the Sukhoi product is misused (as it usually is) the users will find that the American-built products (the F-22s and other systems) that kill it are extremely deadly as the American solutions actually work in the hands of any competent or incompetent air force. With the exception of Russia, Vietnam and India, the Russian product cannot claim the same.    

>The AWACs killer missile is nonsense, but not the work on a new medium range dual impulse (boost-sustain) candle burn rocket. Might be true that the Russians are working on a two stage air to air missile. Good luck with that one.

The "AWACs" killer missile is not nonsense. On the MiG-31 exercises in 1994, certain target was successfully engaged and destroyed by R-37 missile at the ~300 km range. The R-37 successor for PAK-FA internal bays known as "Izdelie 810" is in development. According to early reports from manufacter, it has 1.5 more range and other improvements (such as max alitutude of target ~40 km) compared to original R-37.

Note: [The test was cooked in that the target was a broadcaster, on a non-evasive course with no countermeasures, and no escort.]

Missiles with a dual impulse motor? Maybe. Internal weapons bays on PAK-FA are long enough to carry those.

Since the missiles are well within AMRAAM dimension size and chemistry is chemistry the limiter is the size of the guidance package and the choice of the physical steer solution. The lattice ladder drag control is no longer necessary for drag reduction and volume minimization, so I expect a more comventional fins, jets, and vanes control.


The actual data on PAK-FA missiles still classified.

So is the T-3 and the Dual-Role Air-Dominance Missile (DRADM)

, tha alsot does not stop me from knowing what is physically or technically possible in those missiles or Russian ones. The secret knowledge is not that secret.


KTRV Corp.(Russia's aircraft missile manufacturers holding company) CEO talked about new air-air missiles with a remarkable increased range exceeding all other missiles in air-air class. KTRV CEO refered to some new short-range and middle-range AAMs with significantly improved range (up to two times longer effective distance of launch).

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earlm       1/29/2011 7:49:59 PM
R-77 doesn't use a lofted trajectory?  Or is it a chaser?
 
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gf0012-aust       1/29/2011 8:06:02 PM

The "AWACs" killer missile is not nonsense. On the MiG-31 exercises in 1994, certain target was succesfully engaged and destroyed by R-37 missile at the ~300 km range. 

it is if the test is not realistic.

eg

1) AWACS follow procedures on when to turn away when missiles or launch is detected. the ranges are not common knowledge

2) launch can be detected even if the red launcher is passive

3) AWACs normally have escorts running picket if the battlespace is "hot".  the escorts are designed to deal with leakers and also act as ickets

4) the target needed to act like an AWACs with the same sensing capabilities - other wise its a long range dumb target

etc etc....  there's a whole pile of other technical reasons why the russians might have done a long range shoot which doesn't reflect a launch at an AWACs


 
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gf0012-aust    typo   1/29/2011 8:08:09 PM
ickets = pickets = extension to the AWACs sensing array
 
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heraldabc       1/30/2011 4:09:15 AM

R-77 doesn't use a lofted trajectory?  Or is it a chaser?
Yes it does, and no it isn't. It just suffers from the same thing SPARROW did, lousy initial manufacturing and a finicky pro-nav solution.
 
Steerage for endgame could be better for weird grid fins, but that is because of its weird tail steer effect  at Mach 1.5+
 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Vympel-R-77-maks2009.jpg/300px-Vympel-R-77-maks2009.jpg" height="228" width="300" />  
 
 
H.   
 
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Galderio       2/1/2011 11:52:33 AM
"AWACS killer missile is nonsense because it can't work."
 
The idea of an AWAC killer may not work, but a very lon range AAM could be very usefull against large targerts like cargo planes, tankers, Elint and others support aircrafts, even the Globalhawks and U2s. It won't be efective at 400km but may works well at half that range or more, in some circunstances it may be much better than a conventinal AAM.With semi ballistic tragetory like the S-300 or S-400 such missile could be a problem as you can't be sure their fighters won´t never come close enough to fire them.
 
But I still think they should spend their money making more reliable conventional AAMs, at least they need to make sure their missiles will reach the targets most of the time.
 
 
 
 
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