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Subject: F-35 news thread III
jessmo_24    1/12/2011 7:23:24 AM
BF-2s 1st vertical landing. *ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS3ngl1GcaI&feature=player_embedded NAVAIRSYSCOM 10 Jan 2011 "F-35B test aircraft BF-2 accomplishes its first vertical landing and conversion back to normal flight mode at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Maryland. The integrated test team is testing both the STOVL and carrier variants of the F-35 for delivery to the fleet. Video courtesy Lockheed Martin."
 
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HR    keffler   4/24/2015 2:18:27 PM
Go back to your rubber doll. The only troll here is you. As it happens most of the time you argue in one direction and then another... and conveniently forget. Last time you touched on this subject (the wrong way) you claimed that the F-18 was cheaper and could do the job...But the news on the F-35 are progressively getting better and the comparison with older aircrafts is turning to be accurate... it is a better war making machine than the legacy aircrafts could ever dream of being. We have not seen range like this since the A-6 and it can fight like an F-16. And for Keffler... stay in your hole with your doll.
 
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JFKY    Keffler & HR   4/24/2015 2:42:29 PM
please, keep quiet...this is when threads DIE, when you two spend your time insulting one another like cranky children.  If you have noting to say about the F-35, then please say NOTHING....We should not have to shepherd & mind you two like nannies...
 
As the Country Song says, "How can I miss you, if you won't stay gone?"
 
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keffler25       4/24/2015 3:24:04 PM
To fly an F-16 with 2.5 tons of weapons [and fuel] under the wings as the Norwegian F-16s did during the Libya operations, Hanche compares to using an underpowered car to pull a caravan up a steep slope.

You're actually completely dependent on full afterburner to be able to turn at high altitude. Before we even reached our destination, it was necessary to refuel in the air twice on the trip between Crete and Tripoli, he said.


[...]

F-35 would have taken the entire weapons load inside the hull without much noticeable reduction in performances and would have flown the entire mission without air refueling. 
 
This highlights the lesson of DRAG as one of the four [severe] performance limiters on aircraft. Internal carriage and supersonic launch speed made possible thus adds  20-30 % shove an aircraft can potentially impart to a missile. That translates into a much longer free flight after burnout and a larger NEZ, especially when taking the first in-your-face shoots at [unaware] air and ground targets.     
 
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HR    JFKY   4/24/2015 3:30:01 PM
I do not know what it will take for Keffler to stop. I believe he is already on medications so that obviously is not doing it. //// //// As far as news other than Jessmo's all I hear are good things from the Marines... they have already started integrating them with their legacy F-18 and expect to add 6 additional ones next year. That is good too.
 
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keffler25       4/24/2015 8:13:11 PM
"I do not know what it will take for Keffler to stop."
 
Onto the TOPIC...
 
The Russians have their engine troubles, but all is not roses for Pratt and Whitney;   
 

FARNBOROUGH - The blade rubbing that prompted a fire in an F-35A  – leading to a fleetwide grounding July 3 – took place in the third-stage fan of the integrally bladed rotor (IBR) in the low pressure section of the F135engine, according to Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, program executive officer for the U.S.–led F-35 program.

The three-stage IBR sits behind the front fan in the F135 and compresses the air before passing it into the high-pressure core. Each stage is separated by a stator and rotates within the casing, which is lined with an abradable strip to maintain tight clearances between the blade tips and the inner wall of the compressor casing. This enables tight tolerances while reducing pressure loss and some rubbing is acceptable. In the engine for AF-27, the blades were rubbing far in excess of the design, creating excessive heat and microcracking in the blades. The resulting high cycle fatigue failure forced the section to “come apart,” Bogdan says, prompting the fire June 23 at Eglin.

The pilot safely egressed and the flames were extinguished with foam.

Senior Pentagon officials say the problem thus far appears isolated; officials have inspected all 98 Pratt & Whitney F135 engines in service, Bogdan says. “All 98 of the other engines did not indicate the same phenomena as the one that failed,” he said. “We have created a body of evidence now that we think is ample enough to fully understand what happened.”

Investigators narrowed their focus on the third stage fan in the IBR about two weeks after the fire took place, Bogdan says. That was last week, well after four F-35Bs were slated to make a historic flight across the Atlantic Ocean for their international debut at the Royal International Air Tattoo at RAF Fairford last week followed by flying displays at Farnborough.

They missed RIAT, but Pentagon procurement chief Frank Kendall says they might still make an appearance at Farnborough later this week. He said their appearance is in the hands of the air worthiness authorities and “safety is first” as they consider a return to flight.

When asked about a July 14 post on the official Facebook page of NAS Patuxent River saying the aircraft could fly over as early as July 15, Bogdan and Pentagon procurement chief Kendall looked stunned. “I don’t think Facebook is an official source,” Bogdan said, adding the Air Force and Navy air worthiness authorities continue review data ahead of approval to resume flights. If they arrive in the United Kingdom in time for the show, Bogdan says the plan is to do the entire display routine showing the aircraft’s hover and some maneuvering.

“We do not intend on doing a B-52-style fly over if it gets here. We intend to do the profile that the United States Marine Corps pilots trained for four months.”

Meanwhile, “there is a growing body of evidence that this is not a systemic, major design problem,” Kendall said.

“This is not related to any incident in the past,” said Pratt & Whitney President Paul Adams.

Pratt engineers were already in the midst of a redesign to the first stage fan in the IBR, embracing a solid bladed design over the hollow design. A ground-based test engine “blew” late last year, Bogban said, owing to cracking in the hollow blades. The second and third stage fans –- the area in question for the June 23 fire -– are both constructed of solid blades. Pratt has submitted plans to Bogdan’s office for approval of plan to produce solid blades in the first stage and they are under review. This work is unrelated to the June fire incident, Adams said . 
 
The problems continue...  
 
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keffler25       4/24/2015 8:29:05 PM
 

Pratt  &  Whitney is installing a retrofit in its F135 engine to repair the problem that prevented the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter from making its international debut last summer. It expects to complete the fix fleetwide by early next year.

An engine fire in an F-35A that was preparing to take off for a training mission at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., last June caused the Pentagon to ground the entire fleet, preventing the F-35’s planned international debut the following month at both the Royal International Air Tattoo and the Farnborough Airshow in the UK. The new time and place of that debut remain unannounced. Speaking with reporters in Washington, D.C., on March 24, show organizers said they do not expect the F-35 to appear at the Paris Air Show in June.

Investigators determined that the F135 fire started as a result of excessive rubbing of a polyimide plate seal between the second- and third-stage integrally bladed rotors in the engine’s compressor section. The rubbing caused excessive heating and led to the failure of the third-stage fan rotor.

Once the root cause of the engine fire was identified, Pratt & Whitney developed two fixes. The first, “controlled rub-in” procedure involves flying the F-35 in a series of planned maneuvers so that seal, which is designed to be abraded into a groove, or trench, wears in a controlled manner. The second fix was to create a “pre-trench” in the seal during the manufacturing process and retrofit the part in fighters that have been already delivered.

We basically said, instead of rubbing it in, let’s just cut it out,” Mark Buongiorno, Pratt  &  Whitney’s F135 program vice president, told  AIN . “We basically machined that trench in as part of the manufacturing process as opposed to letting the engine do it itself. That fix has been validated. We demonstrated that there was an insignificant loss in performance because of it and we are in the process of retrofitting the fleet to that pre-trench configuration.”

Interviewed during Pratt & Whitney’s media day in Hartford, Conn., on April 2, program officials said the retrofit has been installed on all but one of 17 system development and demonstration (SDD) fighters; the exception being an F-35 that was unavailable because it was undergoing climatic testing at Eglin AFB. The engine manufacturer is rolling out the retrofit to the remainder of the fleet using its field technicians. As of late January, F-35 manufacturer Lockheed Martin said it had delivered 131 fighters to the Department of Defense.

Buongiorno described the retrofit as “relatively minimally invasive” and accomplished in two eight-hour work shifts. He said the manufacturer is on track to complete the retrofit on the F-35Bs the Marine Corps plans to use to declare initial operational capability ( IOC ) this summer, and on F-35As the Air Force plans for  IOC  in 2016. 
 
Because some dimwitted engineer thought abrasion would work, the engine had the whole program stalled for a YEAR running up an additional $8 BILLION USD in costs, while everyone twiddled their thumbs waiting on Pratt to figure it out. .
 
 You know JFKY, This is what separates the men from the boys? Knowing the wheres, whys and whatfors and not being taken in by the hoopla and bullship.
 
Jessmo is not ignorant like some of us who comment on this forum about things we do not know. He is an informed  OPTIMIST who thinks the F-35 will prove out. He performs a valuable service here giving access to things aviation about that bird that even I miss, but that does not mean everyone in this forum is as well versed as nuanced as he, as fair or is as valuable a contributor on this subject or others.     
 
But when I don't know a subject, I TELL you and ask questions until I understand.  
 
Just something to consider...    
 
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jessmo_24       4/25/2015 1:01:44 AM
Here is what I have a problem with:
 
Will APA ever update there site or release recants for statements. even when proven wrong?
 
here is an example
 
 
Why is the F-111 on this List, Because of Range? The B-52 has range and fire power, but its not considered a hight capability fighter. Why is the Typhoon considered low capability? Its a mach 1.4+ supercruising machine? These people are all over the place.
 
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jessmo_24       4/25/2015 1:15:49 AM
Again don t the F-15C the F-22 and the F-35 have about the same range? Help me out here. whats the range on a F-15 with no conformal or wing tanks? Whats the range of the F-22 with and without super cruise. I dont want calssified data.
Just the ball park.
 
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jessmo_24       4/25/2015 1:26:38 AM
Some old tibbits from F-16.net. I cant acces goggle from here. someone gimmie spitball F-22 range.
 
Things to keep in mind:
1.  The F-35 has longer range

This seems to be a persistent myth. Only the F-35C has longer range.  The "A" and "B" model has equal or less range than the F-22.  The Raptor has 590nm combat radius with 4 AAM + GBU-32s, exactly the same as the F-35A. The Raptor's profile is all subsonic plus a 6% routing factor around threats.

2.  The F-35 can carry a 2k bomb internally
3.  It took 2x F-22s to take out one building (4x1k JDAMS) where 1 F-35 (2x2k JDAMS) could have done the job.

That may be true but that doesn't consider the kind of effects they were looking for on a target.  I know that in past conflicts they found with large structures hitting more aimpoints with smaller munitions was more effective in destroying the target.  It doesn't sound to me that the F-22 was needed because of the threat, so if they wanted to they could have employed Beagles or B-1s to hit that complex with 2klb ordnance. Having the ability to carry 2klb ordnance is an advantage to be sure.

4.  The target was selected long before the F-22's took off, it did not have to go looking for a target.

To be fair Blk 35 jets have GMTI and SAR.  The F-35 is as noted far better suited for EO target acquisition.  The F-22 will make a descent interdiction striker and very good as a direct attack DEAD platform.

5.  The FLIR images that were taken were from some other aircraft, so an LO fighter was not "needed".  The F-35 can acquire and take advantage of it's own FLIR imagery without the need of additional aircraft.
6.  The F-22 costs more to make, fly, maintain, and upgrade than the F-35
7.  The F-22 cannot replace the Harrier (No STOVL or expeditionary OPs)
8.  The F-22 cannot replace the F-18 (No naval OPs)
 
 
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jessmo_24       4/25/2015 1:29:25 AM
Again the point im making is that  if your goign to add up capability and range then the F-111 does not belong on that chart. If its simply range then the F-22 AND the F-35 should be on the charts. Am I missing somthing or am I trying to make sense of ignorance?
 
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