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Subject: Magic Mossies
Aussiegunneragain    7/11/2010 9:01:10 AM
There was a thread on here a few years ago put up by a fellow named Shooter, who was trying to make the argument that the Dehavilland Mosquito was a strategically insignificant aircraft which should never have been produced for the RAF, because it represented a waste of engines which could have better been used in Avro Lancasters. Shooter, an American, had a hobby of trying to diss any non-American type that had an excellent reputation (the Spitfire was another favourite target) and most people here told him he was being a clown with that being the end of it. However, the thread has stuck in the back of my mind and made me wonder whether in fact the Mossie, despite its widespread usage in a variety of roles, was in fact underutilised in the daylight strategic bombing role? It did perform some very important low level raids such as the daylight raid on the Phillips radio works (along with Ventura's and Bostons - far less Mossies were shot down)in Holland during Operation Oyster. However, I can't find many references to the Mossie being used for the sort of regular high altitude daylight strategic bombing missions that the B-17 and other USAF daylight heavies conducted. Consider its characteristics: -It could carry 4 x 500lb bombs all the way to Berlin which meant that you needed three mossies to carry a slightly larger warload than one B-17 did, which upon this basis meant more engine per lb of bomb in the Mossie. -However, the Mossie was hard to catch and was more survivable than the Heavies. The latter only really became viable with the addition of long-range escort fighters, something that the mossie could have done without. -It only required two crew versus ten on a B-17. Without intending to be critical of the USAF daylight heavies, because they were one of the strategically vital assets in winning WW2, I am wondering whether had the RAF used the Mossie in the role at the expense of night bombing operations in Lancasters? I have read accounts that suggest that the later were not really directly successful in shutting down German production, with the main contribution being that they forced the Germans to provide 24/7 air defence. If they had used Mossies more in the daylight precision role is it possible that the impact that the fighter-escorted USAF bombers had on German production might have been bought forward by a year or so, helping to end the War earlier? Another idea that I have is that if Reich fighter defences had started to get too tough for unescorted Merlin powered Mossies on strategic daylight missions, that they could have built the Griffon or Sabre powered versions that never happenned to keep the speed advantage over the FW-190? Up-engined Fighter versions of the Mossie would also have probably had sufficient performance to provide escort and fighter sweep duties in Germany in order to provide the bombers with even more protection. Thoughts? (PS, in case anybody hasn't worked it out the Mossie is my favourite military aircraft and my second favourite aircraft after the Supermarine S-6B ... so some bias might show through :-). I do think it has to rate as one of the best all round aircraft of all time based on its merits alone).
 
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Aussiegunneragain       8/13/2012 1:05:56 PM
So what if the P-47 shot down more aircraft? There were twice as many of them and they were all fighters, it would have been a bit strange if they didn't.
 
I note that as usual you are making unsupported assertions about the tonnage of bombs dropped and targets destroyed, but it is plausible that the larger numbers of P-47s did that. Again, so what? The types did different air to ground roles, because the Mossie could do things the P-47 couldn't like dropping a Cookie on Berlin, or into a train tunnel, or blasting a submarine with a nose mounted cannon, or hitting a Nazi rally in Berlin ... the list goes on. It made sense to have the P-47s on the cab ranks walloping Panzers when they appeared, it was a mission on which the Mossie would have been wasted.
 
Really the P-47s contribution had as much to do with the productive capacity of the US economy as it did with the quality of the aircraft. Don't fool yourself that it had the versatility of the Mossie though, it didn't. 
 
As for the ungluing issue in the tropics, it was solved and the Mossie went on to give sterling service there. A minor issue really in the scheme of things compared to the many disasterous wartime development programs. Remember too that the US didn't get a fighter that could compete in the ETO until the P-47s flew their first missions in 1943, nearly two thirds of the way through the war. Before that they flew Spitfires. The Brits could produce a bomber that in late 1941 had comparable performance to the first decent US fighter introduced in early 1943, so I can kinda see why a few blind US patriots might be keen to find fault
 
 
 
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Ispose       8/13/2012 2:12:15 PM
So what if the P-47 shot down more aircraft? There were twice as many of them and they were all fighters, it would have been a bit strange if they didn't.
There were twice as many of them but in the ETO there wern't that many more of them than Mossies...remember the US supplied P-47's to the Pacific and to Allies such as Mexico, Russia, New Zealand, Brazil and yes the RAF and RAAF...looks like a lot of people liked it.
I note that as usual you are making unsupported assertions about the tonnage of bombs dropped and targets destroyed, but it is plausible that the larger numbers of P-47s did that. Again, so what? The types did different air to ground roles, because the Mossie could do things the P-47 couldn't like dropping a Cookie on Berlin, or into a train tunnel, or blasting a submarine with a nose mounted cannon, or hitting a Nazi rally in Berlin ... the list goes on.
BS...the Mossie wern't assigned to Tactical ground attack missions because they would have suffered unacceptable losses...they were fragile compared to P-47's and Typhoons, larger, and less manueverable...german light AA would have shot down a lot of them...they shot down a lot of Thunderbolts and Tiffies and they were harder to hit and tougher...Hitting submarines and shipping...B-25 strafers were much more effective in that role...they sunk far more enemy shipping than Mossies, even the Beaufighter did more...and that was a great airplane for it's role. A-26's were a better aircraft...they just came in later....they were still being used into the 70's....long after Mossies were scrapped and burnt.
Really the P-47s contribution had as much to do with the productive capacity of the US economy as it did with the quality of the aircraft. Don't fool yourself that it had the versatility of the Mossie though, it didn't.
 Didn't say it was more versatile...just contributed more to enemy defeat than the Mossie.
. Remember too that the US didn't get a fighter that could compete in the ETO until the P-47s flew their first missions in 1943, nearly two thirds of the way through the war. Before that they flew Spitfires. The Brits could produce a bomber that in late 1941 had comparable performance to the first decent US fighter introduced in early 1943, so I can kinda see why a few blind US patriots might be keen to find fault
Fallacious...the P-38 had better performance than the Mossie and it was developed before the US entered WW2 and was in service by the time of Pearl Harbor...also 1943 wasn't 2/3 of the way thru the war for the US...it wasn't even halfway. Again I'm not saying the Mossie was bad, just not the best in any of the categories that it was used in:
Daylight Fighter - laughable if it was used in that way. Just about any contempory German aircraft could defeat them unless the pilot was asleep at the wheel
Ground Attack fighter - P-47 and Tiffie better
Interdiction - Good, B-26 or A-26 better
Photo recon - Maybe the best, although many aircraft did this quite well
Anti Shipping - B-25's, Beaufighters
Nightfighter - He-219 was the best, P-61 was slightly better...but very close
Light Bomber - only if someone else with a bombsight led them
The strength of the Mossie was that it could do many of these roles adequately so that the Allies could task those squadrons with a variety of missions as needed....it was not "stop all production on all other aircraft...we've got our wonder weapon" aircraft...no aircraft was. And no, I'm not a US is better in all things person...I think the best piston engined pure fighter of the war is probably the Tempest or Ta-152, the best Interceptor...probably the Spitfire, best Carrier Fighter the F6F, Heavy Bomber - hands down the B-29, Medium Bomber...B-25 or Ju-88 both were very adaptable, You need to take off your RAF/RAAF rose colored glasses and realize that there many fine aircraft used by the allies and some of them were superb in their roles
 
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HeavyD       8/13/2012 3:02:05 PM
The Mosquito is certainly at the top of the list of the best all-around aircraft of WWII.  The problem with being the best all-around anything is that you are likely to NOT be the best at specific roles.  Consequently we can carve holes in various arguments, like the Mosquito as a daytime fighter or CAS bird.
 
Best medium bomber?  By a mile.
 
To bring the argument more current, is there a post-war aircraft that deserves similar acknowledgement?   I'd like to nominate the A4 Skyhawk and the F-4 Phantom.  The latter would still be an impressive bird with the speed to outrun a F/A 18!
 
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45-Shooter       8/13/2012 3:22:29 PM
The following quote is correct in so many ways. but still misses the mark.
There were how many Mossy night fighters and how many of the late war German counterparts flying?
Acording to my calculator, the red numbers in the yellow high-light add up to 1,482 Mossys built during the War.
They built only 200 He-219s, total including prototypes.( See Wiki numers in red below.)
So the Mossy had a 7.41/1 advantage and a K/L ratio of ~4/1??? RIGHT!
From Wiki;
Night fighters
The first production night fighter... Mosquitos were designated NF Mk II. A total of 466 were built with the first entering service with No. 157 Squadron... in January 1942.

Ninety-seven NF Mk IIs were upgraded with centimetric AI Mk VIII radar and these were designated NF Mk XII. The NF Mk XIII, of which 270 were built, was the production equivalent of the Mk XII conversions.

The NF Mk XIX was an improved version of the NF XIII. It could be fitted with American or British AI radars; 220 were built.

The NF Mk 30 was the final wartime variant and was a high-altitude version, powered by two 1,710 hp (1,275 kW) Roll-Royce Merlin 76s. The NF Mk 30 had a maximum speed of 424 mph (682 km/h) at 26,500 ft (8,100 m).[125]... It also carried early electronic countermeasures... equipment. 526 were built.

Variants
He 219 A-0
Initially used for pre-production aircraft but became first major production version with 1,750 PS DB 603A engines, 104 built as of 30 November 1944 [13],
He 219 A-1
Proposed reconnaissance...-bomber aircraft; project abandoned
He 219 A-2
Similar to A-0 but extended engine nacelles with additional fuel tanks, 1,670 PS DB 603AA engines, 85 built as of 30 November 1944 [13]
He 219 A-5
Planned three-seat night fighter, only some prototypes known to have been built from A-2 airframes
He 219 A-6
Planned Mosquito-hunter, stripped-down version of the He 219 A-2, armed with four 20 mm MG 151/20s
He 219 A-7
Improved night fighter version, powered by two 1,800 PS DB 603E engines, 210 ordered as of 30 November 1944 [13]
He 219 D-1
He 219 A-7 airframes adapted for Jumo 213E engines, five known to be delivered in 1945
He 319
An unbuilt multi-role aircraft project entirely unrelated to the He 219; only having the number sequence in common
He 419
Various derived projects culminating in He 419 B-1/R1, six of which were flown; use of the He 319 tail..., very long-span wing of 59 square metres (635 sq ft), two 20 mm MG 151/20 in the wings and four 30 mm MK 108 in ventral housing. Speed of 422 mph (679 km/h) to 44,619 ft (13,600 m).

I'll give you one stat that I remembered though. Even this site dedicated to German "Mosquito killers" highlights the superiority of the Mosquito over the German night fighters. The kill ratio was 258 to 70 to the Mosquito, that is nearly 4 to 1, and fear of the Mossie also led to a large number of crashes by pilots panicking and rushing to land. A few German aces did ok against the Mossies, as is the want of aces in what they fly, but in general the Mossies had it all over them. Keep in mind that the Mossies were flying over German territory, without ground radar support and at least to begin with no radar of their own, only passive radar detectors. It is an extraordinary testament to the superiority of the aircraft.

 



 
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45-Shooter       8/13/2012 3:30:34 PM


So what if the P-47 shot down more aircraft? There were twice as many of them and they were all fighters, it would have been a bit strange if they didn't.

I note that as usual you are making unsupported assertions about the tonnage of bombs dropped and targets destroyed, but it is plausible that the larger numbers of P-47s did that. Again, so what? The types did different air to ground roles, because the Mossie could do things the P-47 couldn't like dropping a Cookie on Berlin, or into a train tunnel, or blasting a submarine with a nose mounted cannon, or hitting a Nazi rally in Berlin ... the list goes on. It made sense to have the P-47s on the cab ranks walloping Panzers when they appeared, it was a mission on which the Mossie would have been wasted.

Really the P-47s contribution had as much to do with the productive capacity of the US economy as it did with the quality of the aircraft. Don't fool yourself that it had the versatility of the Mossie though, it didn't. 

As for the ungluing issue in the tropics, it was solved and the Mossie went on to give sterling service there. A minor issue really in the scheme of things compared to the many disasterous wartime development programs. Remember too that the US didn't get a fighter that could compete in the ETO until the P-47s flew their first missions in 1943, nearly two thirds of the way through the war. Before that they flew Spitfires. The Brits could produce a bomber that in late 1941 had comparable performance to the first decent US fighter introduced in early 1943, so I can kinda see why a few blind US patriots might be keen to find fault  

Lets see; The P47 dropped 113,963 tons of bombs, even though their primary mission was as a FIGHTER plane?
But worse than that, the P-38 could out range,speed and ceiling any Mossy with guns and drop more than 4,000 pounds of ordinance! and stll have the guns and performance to fight it's way out of trouble instead of run with it's tail tucked between it's legs like all un-armed Mossy's!

 
 
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HeavyD       8/13/2012 4:43:10 PM




But worse than that, the P-38 could out range,speed and ceiling any Mossy with guns and drop more than 4,000 pounds of ordinance! and stll have the guns and performance to fight it's way out of trouble instead of run with it's tail tucked between it's legs like all un-armed Mossy's!

 
dude, you are so far out of line with comments like this that it negates anything else you might have that is valid.  oh, and please give me an example of a P-38 being loaded with more than 4000 lbs of ordnance.
 
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Ispose    Night fighers   8/13/2012 5:13:24 PM
The Mossie's role in Night Fighting was primarily of ANTI German nightfighers...It certainly was a much better performing aircraft than the majority of german nightfighter which were Bf-110's and Ju-88 conversions...you had to be a pretty good pilot to take on a Mossie in a dogfight and beat it with a Bf-110.  The He-219 was an entirely different story...just as fast, heavily armed, more manueverable and better radar...just to few and too late. The German nightfighter aces majority of kills were lancasters, halifax's, etc...poorly armed wooden bombers highly susceptible to cannon fire.
However...look at the Mossie aces kills...mostly transports, flying boats, etc...looks like they really didn't do all that well fighter on fighter either....looks like they did more flying along at night trying to scare the Luftwaffe nightfighters away from the bombers...must have worked somewhat...still RAF bomber losses were high from the german Nightfighters.
US nightfighers were not particularly succesful either in the ETO...poor doctrine and late arrival by the P-61 limited successes....they were much more sucessful in the Pacific.
 
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45-Shooter       8/13/2012 9:24:31 PM






But worse than that, the P-38 could out range,speed and ceiling any Mossy with guns and drop more than 4,000 pounds of ordinance! and stll have the guns and performance to fight it's way out of trouble instead of run with it's tail tucked between it's legs like all un-armed Mossy's!

 
dude, you are so far out of line with comments like this that it negates anything else you might have that is valid.  oh, and please give me an example of a P-38 being loaded with more than 4000 lbs of ordnance.
From Wiki;
Other sources if you wish.
The P-38L was the most numerous variant of the Lightning, with 3,923 built, 113 by Consolidated-Vultee... in their Nashville... plant. It entered service with the USAAF... in June 1944, in time to support the Allied invasion of France on D-Day.... Lockheed production of the Lightning was distinguished by a suffix consisting of a production block number followed by "LO," for example "P-38L-1-LO", while Consolidated-Vultee production was distinguished by a block number followed by "VN," for example "P-38L-5-VN."

The P-38L was the first Lightning fitted with zero-length rocket launchers. Seven high velocity aircraft rockets... (HVARs) on pylons beneath each wing, and later, ten rockets on each wing on "Christmas tree" launch racks. The P-38L also had strengthened stores pylons under each wing to allow carriage of 2,000 lb (900 kg) bombs, or Mk-13 Torpedows, or 300 USgal (1,100 l) drop tanks.

I would point out that the torpedow is 2,200 pounds each and the rockets are 140 pounds each times twenty.

 
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Aussiegunneragain    Heavy   8/13/2012 10:14:48 PM




 
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HeavyD    @ 45 shooter   8/14/2012 12:26:16 AM
The P-38 was tested with 2 torpedoes but was rarely if ever actually used.
And the rocket load was 2x5, not 2x10.
I was nit-picking the 'over' 4,000 comment un-necessarily.  Fact is the Lightning was an excellent plane - more fighter than bomber because it had to dive-bomb given that it had no other way of aiming.
 
The Mossy was a bomber, with a second crewman and the ability to bomb from altitude and to perform the pathfinding role.
 
Both were excellent aircraft - the Allies could have won the European war with just these two and the Spitfire (early in the war) and Mustang (later when range was required).  The single-engine craft needed because the P-38 suffered from compression problems.
 
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