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Subject: Magic Mossies
Aussiegunneragain    7/11/2010 9:01:10 AM
There was a thread on here a few years ago put up by a fellow named Shooter, who was trying to make the argument that the Dehavilland Mosquito was a strategically insignificant aircraft which should never have been produced for the RAF, because it represented a waste of engines which could have better been used in Avro Lancasters. Shooter, an American, had a hobby of trying to diss any non-American type that had an excellent reputation (the Spitfire was another favourite target) and most people here told him he was being a clown with that being the end of it. However, the thread has stuck in the back of my mind and made me wonder whether in fact the Mossie, despite its widespread usage in a variety of roles, was in fact underutilised in the daylight strategic bombing role? It did perform some very important low level raids such as the daylight raid on the Phillips radio works (along with Ventura's and Bostons - far less Mossies were shot down)in Holland during Operation Oyster. However, I can't find many references to the Mossie being used for the sort of regular high altitude daylight strategic bombing missions that the B-17 and other USAF daylight heavies conducted. Consider its characteristics: -It could carry 4 x 500lb bombs all the way to Berlin which meant that you needed three mossies to carry a slightly larger warload than one B-17 did, which upon this basis meant more engine per lb of bomb in the Mossie. -However, the Mossie was hard to catch and was more survivable than the Heavies. The latter only really became viable with the addition of long-range escort fighters, something that the mossie could have done without. -It only required two crew versus ten on a B-17. Without intending to be critical of the USAF daylight heavies, because they were one of the strategically vital assets in winning WW2, I am wondering whether had the RAF used the Mossie in the role at the expense of night bombing operations in Lancasters? I have read accounts that suggest that the later were not really directly successful in shutting down German production, with the main contribution being that they forced the Germans to provide 24/7 air defence. If they had used Mossies more in the daylight precision role is it possible that the impact that the fighter-escorted USAF bombers had on German production might have been bought forward by a year or so, helping to end the War earlier? Another idea that I have is that if Reich fighter defences had started to get too tough for unescorted Merlin powered Mossies on strategic daylight missions, that they could have built the Griffon or Sabre powered versions that never happenned to keep the speed advantage over the FW-190? Up-engined Fighter versions of the Mossie would also have probably had sufficient performance to provide escort and fighter sweep duties in Germany in order to provide the bombers with even more protection. Thoughts? (PS, in case anybody hasn't worked it out the Mossie is my favourite military aircraft and my second favourite aircraft after the Supermarine S-6B ... so some bias might show through :-). I do think it has to rate as one of the best all round aircraft of all time based on its merits alone).
 
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oldbutnotwise       2/15/2013 9:26:53 AM
I think that he also failed to notice that the manual was for a fighter bomber version
 
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oldbutnotwise       2/15/2013 9:33:50 AM
I think that he also failed to notice that the manual was for a fighter bomber version
 
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Belisarius1234    That too.   2/17/2013 12:39:49 PM
Though they DID fly ten hour intruder missions, just not as 'bombers'.
 
B.

I think that he also failed to notice that the manual was for a fighter bomber version

 
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45-Shooter       2/18/2013 5:51:34 PM

shooter you are aware that the speed quoted are in knots NOT MPH?
220kts = 253 mph
Well, no, I am not because it states MPH on the chart pages. It also states "Air Miles per Gallon" in short the charts are ALl in Miles per something!
So no it is not 253 MPH it is 210 to 220 Miles per Hour and 458 Gallons of gas WO drop tanks and 558 galloons with drop tanks, but to get to 715 gallons, you have to put the long range tanks in the bomb bay as stated and shown on pages 22-25, again IIRC!
But one more time, how many gallons are used to start up, taxi, take off and climb? Then how many gallons are required for the emergency reserves, let down, landing, taxi and shut down? What ever is left after those expendatures and reserves held back is availible to fly to and from the target!
So why have you not posted a fuel use plane for the 4,000 pound cookie to berlin?

 
 
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45-Shooter       2/18/2013 6:03:03 PM

Drop tanks, Shooter. They are called DROP tanks. READ the manual AGAIN. 
  B.
RIGHT! They can hold up to 100 gallons each and they weigh just over 700 pounds each when full. So those 200 gallons, plus the 458 in the fuse and wing tanks, NOT COUNTING the "Long range tank in the bomb bay, gives, IIRC, 658 gallons of gas at a weight of 4,343 pounds. Added to the crew at 200, or more pounds each, suited up with parachuttes etc, and the empty plane weight from the manual at 14,300 pounds, gives 19,043 pounds before the first bomb is loaded! Plus the cookie at just under 4,000 pounds makes an all up Over load take off weight of 23,040 pounds!From the chart on page 34 we find the fuel burn at 20,000 pounds is 72 gallons per hour at 220 MPH. But if we note the fuel burn is less than that at 17,000 pounds, then we can extrapolate from those charts is more like 80 gallons per hour. When reserves, and use except cruise, we find that the maximum range, including dropping the bomb half way is about 1,080 miles! Or about 540 miles radius of action.
 
So how does that work out for you, at least as it comes from the manual you posted!

 
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45-Shooter       2/18/2013 6:05:33 PM


I think that he also failed to notice that the manual was for a fighter bomber version

I made this claim that the manual was actually for both versions, not just the fighter, but also the B Mk-VI! See AND READ the prior posts!
How did you miss this point I made long ago?

 
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45-Shooter       2/19/2013 12:49:17 AM

And you'll see why your last two posts are factless CRAP, Stuart. B.
Deliniation of those defects instead of their empty clame would be nice!
 
 

You make this claim constantly, but fail to post a single fact to back it up.

 
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oldbutnotwise       2/19/2013 3:15:02 AM
wow shooter moaning about someone not backing a claim! I dont know how he dares, Id be too ashames to post again in his shoes
 
It is amazing that according to Shooter the mossie could not drop 4000lbs bombs on distant targets that history shows they actually did, but obviously its history thats wrong and not shooter
 
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45-Shooter       2/21/2013 5:37:50 PM

It is amazing that according to Shooter the mossie could not drop 4000lbs bombs on distant targets that history shows they actually did, but obviously its history thats wrong and not shooter
If you can find that I ever said, or more exactly wrote that on this thread, I'll send you $100.00!


What I did say that at an MTO of ~23,000 pounds the range was just less than 1,100 miles and that the range from the air fields was about 1,050 miles from base to Berlin and back to ba s e! But much more importantly, the mission you posit was flown by Mossies that had little relation to the plane described in that manual and had MTOs of 25,000 pounds and a special "Long Range Tank" in the fuse above but not in the bomb bay! They used all 715 gallons, and the round trip range was less than 1,100 miles, which included dropping the bomb half way!  
 
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Belisarius1234    send OBNW the money.   2/21/2013 9:10:39 PM
 
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