Mig-15 v. F-86

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Subject: Mig-15 v. F-86
RockyMTNClimber 6/13/2010 10:40:31 AM

I think this is one of the more interesting historical aviation stories. At the conclusion of WWII the allies divied up the available German engineers and combined them with talent from their bench to create our first generation of jet powered combat aircraft. This happened just as Ole' Smokin Joe Stalin became frisky and decided he could take over the universe. The net Russian result was an airplane that was fastest in level flight, had the highest combat ceiling of any at the time, and could turn with anything the west had in a horizontal fight. Then, the Mig was produced in numbers that boggled the 1950 mind. When the whistle blew over Korea the US had very few assets in place to hold back the Red Tide. Initial combat fell on the F-80 and what WWII piston aircraft that were still stored in the region. The Mig quickly proved itself a vicious killer of B-29s and it could stay outside of any UN fighter pilot's weapons envelope he wanted to. In spite of this, the F-86 did finally arrive and with it some of the best pilots the world has ever seen. The Sabre Jet established itself as a heat shield against the communist "Faggot" (the NATO code name for the Mig-15) and ran up at least a six to one kill ratio. When we compare today's PAC-FX against western types it would be well that we consider we have not always had the pure performance advantages to keep our side safe. Sometimes we have actually had to settle for lower performance and other factors to prevail against our despotic enemies "inferior" equipment. I think the Mig-15 v. F-86 makes an interesting case study that remains relevant today. Check Six Rocky

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RockyMTNClimber Mig spec's: courtesy of Global Security.org 6/13/2010 10:57:57 AM

MiG-15 FAGOT

Specifications
Span	33 ft. 1 1/2 in.
Length	33 ft. 3 5/8 in.
Height	11 ft. 2 in.
Weight	11,270 lbs. max.
Armament	Two 23mm cannons and one 37mm cannon, plus rockets or 2,000 lbs. of bombs
Engine	VK-1 of 6,000 lbs. thrust (copy of British Rolls-Royce "Nene" engine)
Maximum speed	670 mph.
Cruising speed	525 mph.
Range	500 miles
Service Ceiling	51,000 ft.

The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 was originally developed in the Soviet Union as an interceptor. The RD-45 turbojet powered it, which was a copy of the Rolls Royce Nene. Designed to shoot down heavy bombers, it carried one 37mm and two 23mm cannons. German experience in WWII had shown the need for cannons larger than 20 mm to bring down four-engine heavy bombers.

The prototype MiG-15 first flew in December 1947. It began appearing in service in 1949 and by 1952 it had been provided to a number of Communist satellite nations, including North Korea where it was used extensively against United Nations forces. The MiG-15 was deployed against American Air Forces in December of 1950 in Korea. On November 8, 1950, 1st Lt. Russell Brown, flying an F-80, shot down a MiG-15 in the first all-jet dogfight in history. It was apparent, however, that the MiG-15 was superior to any aircraft then in the US inventory.

Initial encounters with American aircraft led to the development of the MiG-15bis (improved). Its VK-1 engine had 1,000 lbs more thrust than the RD-45 engine of the earlier version, and had hydraulic ailerons. Although the MiG-15bis could climb faster and higher than the F-86, poor turning performance and high mach instability limited its dogfight Quote Reply

RockyMTNClimber Sabre spec's: courtesy of Global Security.org 6/13/2010 11:01:52 AM

F-86 "Sabre"

Specifications
Wing Span	35 feet, 11 inches
Length	37 feet, 6 inches
Height	14 feet, 8 inches
Weight	13,791 lbs. loaded
Armament	Six .50-caliber machine guns and eight 5-inch rockets or 2,000 lbs. of bombs
Engine	One General Electric J47 engine with 5,200 lbs. of thrust
Cost	$178,000
Maximum speed	685 mph
Cruising speed	540 mph
Range	1,200 miles
Service Ceiling	49,000 feet

F-86 "Sabre"

The F-86, the US Air Force's first swept-wing jet fighter, made its initial flight on October 1, 1947. Originally designed as a high-altitude day fighter, it was subsequently redesigned into an all-weather interceptor (F-86D) and a fighter bomber (F-86H). Armed with six 50 caliber machine guns, the Sabre pilot had to be in visual contact with the enemy in order to attempt a shoot-down, thereby making it the last true 'dogfighter' in the Air Force inventory. Before production ended, nearly 10 000 Sabres had been produced in 20 different variants (including the Navy FJ series known as the Fury), with five different engines. . Some of these variants had major design differences; consequently, the F-86 must be considered as a whole family of related aircraft.

During its long service life, the F-86 formed a part of the air forces of 24 different countries. As late as 1980, eight Developing nations still included a number of F-86 fighters in their inventories. Production lines were established in four foreign countries, with the last aircraft coming from the Japanese line in 1961. The Sabre saw extensive service with the USAF during the Korean war, in which it achieved an outstanding exchange ratio of nearly 14 to I in combat with the Soviet-built MiG-15. Surely the F-86 must be ranked, along with its illustrious World War 11 ancestor the P-51 Mustang, as one of the great fighter aircraft of all time.

The F-86 Sabre was originally designed for the US Navy in 1945 as a straight-winged jet fighter, and was derived from the XJ Fury. North American Aviation, already famous for its P-51 Mustang and B-25 Billy Mitchell bomber, was put under contract by the US Army Air Force to produce a new jet fighter. Utilizing information captured from the Germans, innovative technologies were employed in transforming the straight-winged XFJ-1 into the swept-wing F-86 Sabre that would dominate the skies over Korea in the 1950s.

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RockyMTNClimber Horizontal turns... 6/13/2010 11:05:17 AM

Although the Mig-15 wasn't as clean a design as the F-86 there are numerous examples of skilled drivers holding US/allied pilots at bay in a turning engagement. In one example I know of a F9F couldn't gain advantage against a Mig-15 in a sustained 5g turn. The Mig had problems but it's basic design was solid.

check Six

Rocky

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earlm 6/13/2010 11:07:06 AM

Just some advice, don't start threads with vs in the title, it attracts trash and drives away the smart guys.

I would focus on the MMI, man machine inteface, differences in the two planes as that is still a design philosophy issue weighing on the T-50's effectiveness.

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RockyMTNClimber Earlm 6/13/2010 11:26:39 AM

Just some advice, don't start threads with vs in the title, it attracts trash and drives away the smart guys.

I would focus on the MMI, man machine inteface, differences in the two planes as that is still a design philosophy issue weighing on the T-50's effectiveness.

I included specs and Global Security writeups for just those reasons. I don't know of a better way to state it than a true west v. east design philosophy. Smart guys can differ on this topic like many others. In fact history since the thawing of the cold war has altered the way we view these events. Russian pilots from that era have written books and are lecturing on the topic which to some extent contradicts our history of the 50's and 60's. For instance when I was young they spoke of a ten to one kill ratio for Sabres against Migs. Today the accepted ratio is 6-8 to one depending upon the source.

Do you have anything to contribute?

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earlm 6/13/2010 6:18:42 PM

It was just a piece of firendly advice, don't take it the wrong way. There are some boards that have been actually banned vs threads.

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Hamilcar Let me think on it. 6/13/2010 8:34:08 PM

For one thing the Mig was optimized as a bomber killer and the Sabre was designed to kill fighters. (though with a weapons pack that was stubbornly ineffective against the flying stovepipe that was the Mig. Funny that it was the Americans who were flying the "fragile plane" that time. You had to be GOOD in a Sabre as a flyer and a marksmen to survive let alone prevail. Just hitting a Mig with a burst of 50s didn't work. You had to hose those planes down and get a pilot or engine kill to be SURE.

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gf0012-aust 6/13/2010 11:15:42 PM

the north korean jet pilot defector No Kum Sok quite clearly states in his meoirs that the F-86 - and US pilots were superior than the Mig 15'd

he makes the point that the russians used to avoid contact whenever the F-86's came hunting - and they had superior models as well as pilot training compared to the chinese and norks.

its an interesting read as he spent some time debriefing the USAF and was then instrumental in providing training and tactical support.

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RockyMTNClimber Just for you.... 6/14/2010 9:35:39 AM

Just some advice, don't start threads with vs in the title, it attracts trash and drives away the smart guys.

I would focus on the MMI, man machine inteface, differences in the two planes as that is still a design philosophy issue weighing on the T-50's effectiveness.

Do you have anything to contribute?

We can rename this thread to officially read:

"A comparative analysis of the USAF F-86 Sabre and the Russian Mig-15, with special attention to the performance and design criteria as well as the technology capabilities of those countries"

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JFKY MiG-15 v. F-86 6/14/2010 9:53:48 AM

I like the title....

MiG-15: better weapons, more hitting power. The Korean Conflict is an INDICTMENT of Soviet/PRC training, though. The pilots were not as good. It's not like the Soviets had to field 10,000 MiG-15's, a la the Great Patriotic War, so why not invest a little more in producing a useful plane driver?

F-86: Poor hitting power....I have read that one of the secrets was TWO F-86's attacking a MiG to allow 12 12.7mm weapons to engage, rather than just 6.

I have also read, and I throw this out to try and spark some discussion, that the F-86 TRANSITIONED better than the MiG-15. It moved from horizontal to vertical and vice versa better and faster than the MiG-15. The advantage was that in maneuvering, the F-86 could transition in each set of maneuvers faster and therefore progressively place itself in a better position, thru time. Is this true? Would it make any real, tactical benefit.

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