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Subject: Mirage 2000-9 vs F-22
Phaid    3/6/2010 6:59:51 AM
So, months after the fact, new "leaks" keep coming out of that ATLC exercise in the UAE. The latest one is that a UAEAF Mirage 2000-9, supposedly flown by a French pilot, got an F-22 into its gunsights. Of course there is no information about what type of scenario, if any, was taking place when this occurred. It's also "interesting" that all these "leaks" from the French keep coming out. It's almost like they had some kind of marketing effort and were trying to make an impression on someone.
 
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Phaid       3/6/2010 7:06:17 AM
Here is a scan of the page in A&C where this is reported:
 
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k90/in_a_coma_dial_999/attachment-1.jpg" height="480" width="348" /> 
 
Apparently the image there is of an actual patch that was created to celebrate the occasion.  Which I think says something about how much of an achievement this is.  Assuming it's legitimate, of course.
 
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Rufus       3/6/2010 8:40:52 AM
"Assuming it's legitimate, of course."
 
Yep, as usual without knowing the scenario this is pretty much completely meaningless, assuming it is accurate at all.
 
 
 
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french stratege       3/6/2010 1:58:30 PM
The fact that a Mirage 2000-9 could shot a F22 in gun training has no importance at all.
It has already happened in USA by F16 or F18 and all professional knows that gun close range combat has a random part against an highly manoeuvrable aircraft with a skilled pilot.
And M2000 has the best instantaneous turning rate and roll rate of previous génération.
What matters for french professionals are actual performance of Rafale versus F22 in BVR, even until now, no real BVR engagement has taken place, and BTW we could not use Spectra versus F22 for now ( in order to maintain confidential its ECM capabilities and remember, Rafale are part of our nuke deterrent).However we are quite confident.
 
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french stratege       3/6/2010 2:11:00 PM
When you know population of Emirates is below 1 million national and that they do not work for most (they let their 4 millions foreign population to do the job: whites do skilled job and are well paid, asians are almost slaves), it not surprising that a french pilot was in a M2000.
Who do you think flight and maintain their 120 F16E and M2000-9  for most or provide crew for their 400 Leclerc tanks?
American "mercenaries" for F16E and french one for french equipment of course.
 
 
 
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jessmo_24       3/6/2010 10:42:04 PM

The fact that a Mirage 2000-9 could shot a F22 in gun training has no importance at all.

It has already happened in USA by F16 or F18 and all professional knows that gun close range combat has a random part against an highly manoeuvrable aircraft with a skilled pilot.

And M2000 has the best instantaneous turning rate and roll rate of previous génération.

What matters for french professionals are actual performance of Rafale versus F22 in BVR, even until now, no real BVR engagement has taken place, and BTW we could not use Spectra versus F22 for now ( in order to maintain confidential its ECM capabilities and remember, Rafale are part of our nuke deterrent).However we are quite confident.



So your saying that all of the F-22 Kills On the raf happened WVR? are you admitting that the Raf has no chance against the raptor in WVR?
 
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jessmo_24       3/7/2010 2:49:31 AM

The fact that a Mirage 2000-9 could shot a F22 in gun training has no importance at all.

It has already happened in USA by F16 or F18 and all professional knows that gun close range combat has a random part against an highly manoeuvrable aircraft with a skilled pilot.

And M2000 has the best instantaneous turning rate and roll rate of previous génération.

What matters for french professionals are actual performance of Rafale versus F22 in BVR, even until now, no real BVR engagement has taken place, and BTW we could not use Spectra versus F22 for now ( in order to maintain confidential its ECM capabilities and remember, Rafale are part of our nuke deterrent).However we are quite confident.



So your saying that all of the F-22 Kills On the raf happened WVR? are you admitting that the Raf has no chance against the raptor in WVR?
 
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Rufus       3/7/2010 3:03:08 AM
He is just trolling... as usual...
 
 
 
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warpig       3/7/2010 11:48:02 AM
Well, at least he is acknowledging that a single data point does not make a trend.  In this case, it *really* can't be used to make a trend since we don't even know enough about it to know how to plot the data point (did it happen, what were the circumstances, etc.)  What I'd like to know is what, out of the very little that has been published regarding whatver that little exercise in UAE actually entailed, can actually be quoted to show that the Rafales did not use their Spectra ESM/ECM system, as well as what can actually be quoted to show that the F-22s did not use their APG-79s?  I am not interested in FS's opinion on the matter, he has already stated it, and as far as I know there is nothing in print quoting anyone that supports his comments.
 
 
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warpig       3/7/2010 11:49:45 AM
D'oh!  I meant APG-77, of course.  As soon as I clicked "Submit Comment" I knew something was wrong....
 
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Das Kardinal       3/8/2010 7:32:02 AM
WVR, gun-only dogfight, is just pilots having fun. The M2K airframe isn't exactly a lame wallowing pig so an experienced French pilot flying the most advanced M2K variant could certainly achieve a "gun kill" on an F-22 sometimes.
Now in a real war I'd rather be in the F-22 :-)
 
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