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Subject: 6*F-22 vs 6*Typhoon vs 6*Rafale in the UAE?!
giblets    11/16/2009 4:48:58 AM
According to both Flight Global, and Defence News, other than attending the Dubai airshow, the USAF, RAF, and FAF each sent 6 of their finest fighter aircraft to the desert Kingdom to take part in multinational exercises. Other than adding much fuel to the fire for forum members here! It raises many questions (such as why the USAF was unable to send 1 F-22 to Paris, and can now send 6 to the UAE, despite no drop in operational tempo). And will the F22 and Typhoon not be in the air at the same time again?
 
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MK       6/29/2010 9:31:35 AM

Herald and I disagree about many things, but we DISCUSS...you know thesis statements, evidence, conclusions.  You are just attacking his person.  That ain't an argument, in fact, it smells of desperation.

 

There's an old lawyer joke:

When you have the law, pound the law;

When you have the facts, pound the facts;

When you have NEITHER the law nor the facts, pound the table....

 

You're pounding the table.  In fact, one of your defenses, seemed to be, who cares if MICA doesn't work and costs too much, Herald got a fact wrong...Got to tell you, that ain't cutting it as far as convincing anyone goes.

 

Also please note the test results were NOT against a SUPER-Sonic target, merely a sea-skimmer that pulled a hi-gee maneuver.  If I'm going 300 KPH I can pull a hi-gee (2-3 Gee maneuver)...sure that'll kill all my energy, and leave me hanging pretty much dead in the air, but I CAN pull one....

 

Read what the release SAID, not what it IMPLIED.  They might want you to think it was high speed, maneuvering target, all they said was that it was against a low altitude target that performed some hi-gee maneuvers, not quite the same thing.  And Herald gets it right, what is "successful?"  The missile(s) launched, guided onto target and passed within 5 metres, 25 metres, 50 metres, 500 metres of the target?  How did they define successful?  Let me define the measures of success and I can pretty well "ace" any examination/evaluation you throw my way.

 

Sorry MK, until Aster intercepts, from a T-45, a super-sonic Talos or Talos-type drone, preferably in a hostile electronic environment, I'm going to question Aster.  It's effective against a/c and Exocet, so is Standard, so was Sea Dart...Aster is supposed to be a step beyond, either.  Demonstrate it, don't talk about it.


If someone makes strong allegations he has to be prepared to be confronted with questions. Hamilcar repeatedly made such allegations, but was never able to to prove his points with regards to French weapon systems. It's quite evident from his posts that he has a strong animosity against the French. I personally don't care about that, as disliking a specific country and inventing stuff are two different things. We are discussing military technology here and I rate those on what they can deliver and not from where they come from. Others here weight the latter first!
It's not up to me to disprove him in the first place, but up to him to prove his assertions, up to date he has miserably failed to do so. The talks about ASTER arose around the claim that MICA doesn't work. His proof for the latter stands on no leg. He has linked a taiwanese press release about the ROC military missile exercise, which clearly states that the MICA test had to be cancelled as the intended target drone was errornously destroyed by the STANDARD missile, to put it bluntly it destroyed the wrong target. This isn't a failure of the MICA, but in fact a failure of the STANDARD missile, hamilcar now spins the story that way that the MICA failed and that STANDARD destroyed the target drone instead. That's obviously wrong according the very article he linked himself. Claims about the missile seeker not working are unproven as well, the problems related to the ASTER missile are caused by the reasons mentioned above. There were no complaints about MICA not performing according to specifications or that it doesn't work at all as is alleged.
The situation about the Rafale is quite similar, a lot of claims zero evidence or at best outdated sources. Would be the same as if I would claim the F135 of the F-35 doesn't work because there were various problems with that engine and I would repeat them years after. I'm pretty sure the entire forum here would attack me for such a behaviour, interestingly no one cares if the miscredited weapons aren't US made. 
 
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JFKY    Doood.   6/29/2010 9:48:37 AM
You're blind. Herald has produced lots of EVIDENCE about MICA and Aster....you just didn't like it.  Bring your OWN evidence to the game, you know like how MICA can perform two dissimilar A2A missions, or that Aster CAN update it's telemtry....
 
He's making supported claims, you're just saying, "No that's not true."  And "You don't like the French."  Sure pretty much all of us don't like the French, that goes without saying, but that's not evidence that MICA works or that Aster does or doesn't update....
 
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Hamilcar    FFACTS.   6/29/2010 9:55:10 AM
I supplied FACTS based on end-user experience, both tester and actual carrier..
 
You've supplied assertions MK.
 
Prove it works, and not just some press release.
 
We've seen AMRAAM  and STANDARD in test and in WAR. They have public track records. We have actually  seen MICA as  tested fail and be so reported by one customer who tried it, for real and np0t in a cooked test. Its older than  older than AMRAAM and nobody sees it tested or uses it, except France. and then not even the RH version.
 
We saw ASTER's orders immediately cut by Italy as she bailed after testing that junk missile and turned instead to war-proved PATRIOT and MEADS.
 
We have reams of You-tube showing US missiles at work from  tau zero to impact. MICA? Zip. Adter? Same.
 
And you call me a liar because I tell you why and marshal facts and data for proof? Get real.
 
It demonstrates itself.
 
H.

.  
 
   
 
 
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Hamilcar    Facts   6/29/2010 10:12:29 AM

I supplied FACTS based on end-user experience, both tester and actual carrier..

You've supplied assertions MK.
 
Prove it works, and not just some press release.

 

We've seen AMRAAM  and STANDARD in test and in WAR. They have public track records. We have actually  seen MICA as  tested fail and be so reported by one customer who tried it, for real, and not in a cooked test. Its older  than AMRAAM and nobody sees it tested or uses it, except France. and then not even the RH version.

We saw ASTER's orders immediately cut by Italy as she bailed after testing that junk missile and turned instead to war-proved PATRIOT and MEADS.

We have reams of You-tube showing US missiles at work from  tau zero to impact. MICA? Zip. ASTER? Same.

And you call me a liar because I tell you why and marshal the facts and data for proof? Get real.

It demonstrates itself.

H.

PS. I do this because I don't want Englishmen, Italians, and FRENCHMEN to die, because some bastards play the same  games now that their grandfathers played in 1938. I wasn't kidding when I  said I would have had Emil  Dewoitine and that !@#$%^&*() Marcel Dassault (Bloch) SHOT for the crap they pulled in 1938.

You think I do this because I hate France? You don't know me at all.
 
H. 
 
 
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MK       6/29/2010 11:38:52 AM

You're blind. Herald has produced lots of EVIDENCE about MICA and Aster....you just didn't like it.  Bring your OWN evidence to the game, you know like how MICA can perform two dissimilar A2A missions, or that Aster CAN update it's telemtry....

 

He's making supported claims, you're just saying, "No that's not true."  And "You don't like the French."  Sure pretty much all of us don't like the French, that goes without saying, but that's not evidence that MICA works or that Aster does or doesn't update....


Hamilcar has produced a lot of noise based on stories spinned the way that suits him. Tall claims are no evidences! And ASTER is not MICA, I haven't discussed ASTER before, ASTER was brought up by Hamilcar as a proof that MICA doesn't work. Why? Because they share the same seeker, while it's reported that the ASTER problems were linked to the power supply and actuators. I have yet to see complaints that MICA doesn't work and so far the evidence to back up the claim is missing. I agree that things not being tested (or at least not reported to the public) leave open question marks. So it might be that the missile don't work, it has yet to be demonstrated, but claiming it doesn't based on nothing is a little bit weak and nothing else than another bashing attempt. He even claims Meteor is troubled because of that seeker, evidence? Nada, zilch, none. Again just empty claims. 
 
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JFKY    MICA and Aster   6/29/2010 11:50:43 AM
You don't want to listen....Herald says MICA RH doesn't work, and that MICA IR is a waste of resources...and that Aster doesn't update it's launch information....and there HAVE been a number of test failures, for Aster.  No one is saying MICA fails, just that it's a silly idea, that only the ADA has adopted, and only 200 of the RH versions.  The best I've heard you say is that it's relative cost and effectiveness are not relevant, only that Herald told an untruth about a MICA test.
 
But would you care to explain how a SINGLE missile can be both an effective LR RH A2A missile, AND a shorter-ranged IR missile...as one requires a great deal of mass and volume for fuel and electronics, and the other requires a less massive and volumetric design?  How France managed to EFFECTIVELY "square that circle"?  That MICA IR is not heavier than ASRAAM or IRIS or AIM-9X, and that it's mass is not detrimental to it's short-range maneuvering needs?  Or would you care to explain how MICA RH can make do with less size or mass, if it adheres more to the IR model for design, but still has the range, speed and volume of electronics to perform it's BVR mission?
 
Again less talk and more demonstration, please.
 
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MK       6/29/2010 11:57:05 AM

I supplied allegations based on wishful thinking
 
You've supplied corrections to my purposely wrong and unproven assertions MK.


 

Prove it works, and not just some press release.

Prove it doesn't. Not me is making the claims here, I just question yours!
 

We've seen AMRAAM  and STANDARD in test and in WAR. They have public track records. We have actually seen liked to have seen MICA as  tested fail and be so reported by one customer who tried it, for real and np0t in a cooked test. Its older than  older than AMRAAM and nobody sees it tested or uses it, except France. and then not even the RH version.

 

We saw ASTER's orders immediately cut by Italy as she bailed after testing that junk missile and turned instead to war-proved PATRIOT and MEADS.

 

We have reams of You-tube showing US missiles at work from  tau zero to impact. MICA? Zip. Adter? Same.

That's from a quick search.
 

And you call me a liar because I tell you why and marshal facts and data for proof? Get real.

I call you liar because you invent stories and try to sell them as facts and base your entire argumentation on that.

 
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MK       6/29/2010 12:17:08 PM

You don't want to listen....Herald says MICA RH doesn't work, and that MICA IR is a waste of resources...and that Aster doesn't update it's launch information....and there HAVE been a number of test failures, for Aster.  No one is saying MICA fails, just that it's a silly idea, that only the ADA has adopted, and only 200 of the RH versions.  The best I've heard you say is that it's relative cost and effectiveness are not relevant, only that Herald told an untruth about a MICA test.
 
I know that hamilcar's argumentation is centred around EM version and not the IR version, should be clear from my posts anyway. I don't care about ASTER at all, what I criticise is the claim that because ASTER failed in some tests that MICA EM doesn't work as well. The ASTER actually passed most of its tests, the problems were encountered against manoeuvring targets and these tests have now been successfully repeated. Whether this means that the missile will be able to intercept supersonic targets is yet another question. Anyway the MICA IR is more relevant for the French now, as Meteor is around the corner and will replace the MICA EM, while the MICA IR will be retained. I actually see the MICA IR as a valuable weapon as it offers both BVR and WVR capabilities.Up to date only Russians have the BVR IR option and I don't think it's bad to have such an option. 

But would you care to explain how a SINGLE missile can be both an effective LR RH A2A missile, AND a shorter-ranged IR missile...as one requires a great deal of mass and volume for fuel and electronics, and the other requires a less massive and volumetric design?  How France managed to EFFECTIVELY "square that circle"?  That MICA IR is not heavier than ASRAAM or IRIS or AIM-9X, and that it's mass is not detrimental to it's short-range maneuvering needs?  Or would you care to explain how MICA RH can make do with less size or mass, if it adheres more to the IR model for design, but still has the range, speed and volume of electronics to perform it's BVR mission?
 
The MICA is a compromise which trades BVR performance for allround performance in WVR and BVR regimes, that this isn't the most effective solution particularly for the BVR area should be clear and I'm not arguing that the MICA is a perfect BVR missile. Btw MICA's weight is 112 kg meaning in the range between dedicated WVR and BVR missiles. All this isn't what was subject of my discussion anyway, I asked for the valid proofs for the claims that the MICA EM doesn't work and all that was returned are replies which are the product of a great fantasy mind.
 
Again less talk and more demonstration, please.

Dito

 
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Reactive    MK   6/29/2010 12:30:27 PM
MK, quick question, what nationality are you?
 
As above, H outlined several of the inherent limitations of the MICA design. 
 
He did the same with Aster a long time before there was anything but universal praise online available for it, the reason I know this is because it was how I initially found strategypage, searching for any scant sources of commentary on the Aster design, I think there are posts as far back as 2007 where you can find him as the single voice that offers any demonstrable knowledge or criticism of the system, not just on SP, but anywhere.
 
Now, along with several other things, and despite the fact that we don't know who H is, he has been on the ball on many occasions this being one of them, when this initally happened all that other posters, especially french posters could find was MBDA press releases that of course, were explaining how the PAAMS system would be the most advanced and capable in the world, they naturally assumed that this was the case in the absense of any other data..
 
He didn't specifically quote anything at that point, as there was nothing available to quote (and I mean, that nothing in the public domain) that was even mildly critical, so instead, he pointed out, in specific design terms what the reasons for his conclusions were... So naturally he was called a liar and an idiot repeatedly as now, but this time we have publicly available dissent being drawn by members of parliament as well as evidence that the the missile fails when tasked with the kinds of maneuvers that the RN expects of it, and as I said before, there's a LOT of noise about Aster/PAAMS because it doesn't look like it's going to meet its requirements to engage the types of threats it was intended to.
 

 
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Rufus       6/29/2010 1:04:37 PM
I don't have any interest in yet another never-ending flame war so I will just say that while some of Herald's criticisms are valid many are just plain ordinary bashing.
 
 The Mica isn't the wonder weapon the now departed French fanboys liked to claim it was, but it is most certainly a functional and modern missile.  Within its limitations it will do its job. 
 
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