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Subject: 6*F-22 vs 6*Typhoon vs 6*Rafale in the UAE?!
giblets    11/16/2009 4:48:58 AM
According to both Flight Global, and Defence News, other than attending the Dubai airshow, the USAF, RAF, and FAF each sent 6 of their finest fighter aircraft to the desert Kingdom to take part in multinational exercises. Other than adding much fuel to the fire for forum members here! It raises many questions (such as why the USAF was unable to send 1 F-22 to Paris, and can now send 6 to the UAE, despite no drop in operational tempo). And will the F22 and Typhoon not be in the air at the same time again?
 
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Reactive       6/28/2010 10:05:48 PM
Reactive, the point isn't that the MICA is expensive or doesn't deliver the same performance as the AMRAAM...
 
 
Well, that was my point, tbh I couldn't care less about MICA it's irrelevant whether or not it works, the facts are as above and its derivative project (Aster) is showing serious weaknesses (no, I don't think it's a minor manufacturing defect, as the MP alluded to in the interview).
 
You suggested I was french bashing, which certainly isn't the worst thing you could have accused me of, but if I am it's certainly not based solely on what's been written here, Aster is being widely talked about (trashed) at all levels and it looks like the T45 is still years away from being operationally available.
 
Any definition of failure depends on your threshold of tolerance, for some, overpriced, underperforming would be adequate, for others it literally has to be inoperable, I expect better use to be made of our taxes, especially when tasked with directly preserving lives.
 
 
 
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dazedandconfused       6/29/2010 12:44:48 AM
Well according to MBDA everything is tickety boo.
 
 
10:52 GMT, June 28, 2010
MBDA is pleased to announce the successful completion of a programme of firings to demonstrate the effectiveness of the Aster 30 missile. Over the last month, firings have been carried out from the Italian Orizzonte frigate ?Andrea Doria?, the French Horizon frigate ?Forbin? and the UK trials barge ?Longbow? at two different ranges in the Mediterranean. The trials were conducted over a range of scenarios of steadily increasing complexity, culminating in a final trial featuring a salvo firing against a sea skimming target performing a high-g terminal manoeuvre. All the trials were fully successful with both the PAAMS ship equipment and Aster missiles operating as expected in each case. This draws to a close the complex and high intensity investigation launched within MBDA after problems encountered in two firing trials last year.

 
  Antoine Bouvier, Chief Executive Officer, said: ?These successful firing trials demonstrate that MBDA has fully mastered the technical issue with the Aster strake that was uncovered last year on recent missile manufacturing. The trials have been completed in support of making sure our domestic customers are in position to deploy the full operational capability of the PAAMS(E) system with the French and Italian navies and the Sea Viper system with the Royal Navy later this year.
 
Not much detail but pretty interesting.
S.
 
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Hamilcar       6/29/2010 2:24:29 AM
A series of test against ONE drone? Something smells here and it isn't rocket fuel. 
 
 
 
 
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dazedandconfused       6/29/2010 3:28:42 AM
I thought it was a bit strange that you do a salvo firing on a single drone.  Is that a typical test?
S.
 
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Hamilcar       6/29/2010 4:53:37 AM

I thought it was a bit strange that you do a salvo firing on a single drone.  Is that a typical test?

S.



That is not exactly what they said. They said they condiucted a series of live fires that culminated in a final verification test against an evading drone, which they pronounced successful.
 
That is a BS statement, if what I think happened, happened. They took the irate customer (UK) to deployed platforms and had those platforms fire missiles to prove that the missiles would launch. Italy and France both  fired missiles from their shups to prove this. Nobody said a damned thing about ENGAGEMENT. Then according to these "people", the same proof of launch exercise was conducted off the British firing barge. Then and only then was a proof shot conducted against a drone.
 
According to those habitual liars, the engagement test was against a drone and it was within their test parameters, a success. What they call a test and what I call am test though?  NOT the same. You see there is not just British necks on the line here. If  this is another disaster like  MICA and the Rafale, then the French are DONE in military aviation.
 
Such is the price of letting Lebanese and UAE thieves and liars into your defense industries. Marwan Lahoud and bastards like him ruin everything they touch or mismanage. 
 
H.
 
     
 
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dazedandconfused       6/29/2010 5:36:05 AM
I was mainly going off this line.
 
"...culminating in a final trial featuring a salvo firing against a sea skimming target performing a high-g terminal manoeuvre."
 
So there was a salvo firing against a (therefore one) sea skimmer?
 
They talk of four  successful test of the ASTER 30 one each from Forbin and Andrea Doria (which we already knew about and a third test with consisted of "...firing a salvo of two Missile Aster 30 from the barge UK Longbow, representing the T45 destroyers .)  This last was taken from ARMEES.COM
 
It just seems odd to test a salvo of two missiles to one drone.  Do they expect one to miss?
As to the rest I admit there is not a lot of detail e.g. what does a "successful" test mean, target, range, target speed etc.
Not that I am expecting them to divulge a lot ...State Secrets and what have you ....( or should that read company confidential).
 
Just interested if a salvo test on one drone is common.
Cheers S.
 
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Hamilcar    A two shot is normal   6/29/2010 6:13:29 AM

I was mainly going off this line.

 

"...culminating in a final trial featuring a salvo firing against a sea skimming target performing a high-g terminal manoeuvre."

 

So there was a salvo firing against a (therefore one) sea skimmer?


 


They talk of four  successful test of the ASTER 30 one each from Forbin and Andrea Doria (which we already knew about and a third test with consisted of "...firing a salvo of two Missile Aster 30 from the barge UK Longbow, representing the T45 destroyers .)  This last was taken from ARMEES.COM

 

It just seems odd to test a salvo of two missiles to one drone.  Do they expect one to miss?


As to the rest I admit there is not a lot of detail e.g. what does a "successful" test mean, target, range, target speed etc.


Not that I am expecting them to divulge a lot ...State Secrets and what have you ....( or should that read company confidential).

 

Just interested if a salvo test on one drone is common.


Cheers S.




since there are no guarantees. Still for a validation test, a proof shot, the US tests against MULTIPLE drones to represent the typical  threat attack of at least two to four missiles. I'm convinced, that like previous "successful" tests this one MBDA ginned up was scripted NTE the severe limits that Aster actually has.
 
Like I said, habitual liars, sort of like LockMart......
 
H.
   
 
       
 
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MK       6/29/2010 7:21:17 AM
ROFL you are a JOKE Hamilcar. I've seen a lot of brain deads over the years, but your spinning and twisting of the truth is truely the crown.
 
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MK       6/29/2010 8:45:33 AM
For the record about the issues with the ASTER 30 missile which are reportedly solved now:
 
According to a news report (by Richard Scott) in ?Jane?s Missiles & Rockets?, analysis to the telemetry data from the two failed salvo firings has shown that missile failures occurred in two different phases of flight.

Apparently, the investigation into the May 2009 test suggested possible problems in the missile power supply and actuator subsystems.


The magazine suggests that the failure modes occur only in the more stressing engagement scenarios being attempted by the UK. These require the missiles to perform very high-g manoeuvres.
 
 
 
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JFKY    MK   6/29/2010 8:52:27 AM
Herald and I disagree about many things, but we DISCUSS...you know thesis statements, evidence, conclusions.  You are just attacking his person.  That ain't an argument, in fact, it smells of desperation.
 
There's an old lawyer joke:
When you have the law, pound the law;
When you have the facts, pound the facts;
When you have NEITHER the law nor the facts, pound the table....
 
You're pounding the table.  In fact, one of your defenses, seemed to be, who cares if MICA doesn't work and costs too much, Herald got a fact wrong...Got to tell you, that ain't cutting it as far as convincing anyone goes.
 
Also please note the test results were NOT against a SUPER-Sonic target, merely a sea-skimmer that pulled a hi-gee maneuver.  If I'm going 300 KPH I can pull a hi-gee (2-3 Gee maneuver)...sure that'll kill all my energy, and leave me hanging pretty much dead in the air, but I CAN pull one....
 
Read what the release SAID, not what it IMPLIED.  They might want you to think it was high speed, maneuvering target, all they said was that it was against a low altitude target that performed some hi-gee maneuvers, not quite the same thing.  And Herald gets it right, what is "successful?"  The missile(s) launched, guided onto target and passed within 5 metres, 25 metres, 50 metres, 500 metres of the target?  How did they define successful?  Let me define the measures of success and I can pretty well "ace" any examination/evaluation you throw my way.
 
Sorry MK, until Aster intercepts, from a T-45, a super-sonic Talos or Talos-type drone, preferably in a hostile electronic environment, I'm going to question Aster.  It's effective against a/c and Exocet, so is Standard, so was Sea Dart...Aster is supposed to be a step beyond, either.  Demonstrate it, don't talk about it.
 
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