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Subject: 6*F-22 vs 6*Typhoon vs 6*Rafale in the UAE?!
giblets    11/16/2009 4:48:58 AM
According to both Flight Global, and Defence News, other than attending the Dubai airshow, the USAF, RAF, and FAF each sent 6 of their finest fighter aircraft to the desert Kingdom to take part in multinational exercises. Other than adding much fuel to the fire for forum members here! It raises many questions (such as why the USAF was unable to send 1 F-22 to Paris, and can now send 6 to the UAE, despite no drop in operational tempo). And will the F22 and Typhoon not be in the air at the same time again?
 
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jackjack       12/23/2009 8:31:31 PM


If I remember well , the Mica 's seeker uses a dual band with a 128x128 pixel resolution (or is it 256x256 ? I go to check) .
Yes, absolutely, please go check.  Also, if you find a source on-line, please post the link to it.  Hopefully the source will be describing the missiles actually in the FAF inventory and currently in use, and not some seeker under development for potential, possible future acquisition.
this is just another example of why BW is an idiot.
after such a claim, i think he will be too embarrassed to post the seeker specs of the mica

Thank you, jackjack.  He appears to be suffering from another bout of that "ascribe to French equipment the superior characteristics of foreign equipment" disease that Le Idiots exhibit so often.  Hopefully, he'll stop confusing the AIM-9X seeker with the much earlier and less advanced MICA IR seeker.  Of course, as I've said for many years here on SP, even the early IIR technology of the MICA IR seeker is a huge improvement over the IR seekers in missiles like AIM-9M and AA-11, and makes the MICA IR a much more deadly missile than those of earlier generations.  Still, maybe they recently started putting a more advanced version of the IIR seeker in their MICA IRs, and now they have some in their inventory that are better than the original version from the 1990s.  I hope I am pleasantly surprised by whatever BW can dig up about it.
nope, its still the old 2 bar, pathetic pixel count, medium counter resistant crap they have always had, as far as i know
its a shame france dont have the money to give the rafale the gear that will make it a 21st century gen 4+ aircraft
 
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Reactive       12/24/2009 7:32:13 AM
So here's another source for you - Jon Lake current defense-editor of arabian aerospace(ex. defense-ed for flight daily news).

ht*p://typhoon.starstreak.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1842&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

 Jon Lake on 18 Dec 2009 23:28

"An RAF pilot who participated in the actual exercise said to me that: "We have no idea how good it is in comparison to us as we are not allowed to merge with it in dogfights."

A senior industry source (who also didn't want to be named) said:

"The stories about the Rafale vs Typhoon are an unjustified and unfair representation of what actually occurred.

In the exercise sorties Typhoons and Rafales worked together on the same team! There were red Typhoon/Rafale combos and blue Typhoon/Rafale combos.

During the CT (continuation training) sorties outside ATLC both Typhoon and Rafale squadrons were conducting work-up sorties for their junior pilots and yes - mistakes were made on both sides where some results like those quoted did occur (but both for and against Rafale) - however to make a big deal about training results would be unfair and entirely unrepresentative.?
 
I hope to learn more now that 3 Squadron are back.

I think that Rafale probably did well against F-22, but in that context, it just means they took longer to be wiped out."
 
I am just adding this to the thread as it's not (to my knowledge) been posted here - you may draw your own conclusions (including a post on the subject) about the veractity of the quote/source.
 
Also it sounds (from what I've seen on french forums) like the engagements publicised were WVR, making them of limited importance when assessing real air-superiority capability (aside from all the other reasons that people have explained about DACT of course)
 

R
 
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mabie       12/24/2009 8:43:27 AM

If the rafale is one vs many how can active cancellation work against several radars at the same time?

Has this question ever been answered?
 
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warpig       12/24/2009 9:37:37 AM
You know, just because a French officer says that Rafale went 4-0 and 3-1 against Typhoon in some sort of engagements, does not exclude the possibility that there were other engagements as well, other engagements that potentially went in the other direction....
 
I suggest that if/when more details become known, and if/when it turns out--even aside from the valid points given in previous posts regarding placing excessive importance on whatever did happen--that so far we've only heard part of the story, and if/when it turns out there were examples of Typhoon successes also (however valid or invalid it is to place weight on these results), then... I suggest we all agree to basically ignore any such similar cries for attention and claims of "see, we're the best" from the Rafale Support Group in the future.
 
 
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Bluewings12       12/24/2009 9:33:01 PM
Merry Christmas everybody :-)
 
Just a quick post . Regarding the IR Mica , I don 't have the time right now to dig the pdf but I am pretty sure that the seeker uses a 128x128 dual band focal plane imaging  (so 256x256 in software) , the Blk II (not in use yet) uses a different focal plane array .
The good thing about the seeker is that it is keeping in memory the leading edges angles (wings , flaps , tail) formed with the main heat signature ~the engine~ by sorting out the difference in the heat signature .
""The MICA?s infrared seeker is said to be immune to countermeasures, because it is multi-celled and will be capable of comparing data from different cells via a dedicated computer.""
(from Forecast International)
""High protection against infra-red countermeasures through the use of dual band infra-red imaging, highly sophisticated image and signal algorithms""
(from Sagem)
h*tp://www.sagem-ds.com/pdf/en/D084.pdf
 
I 've got a picture showing a M2000 "seen" by the Mica IR ' s seeker and it is far more accurate that that :
 
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3715/000asraam4a.jpg" width="384" height="307" />
 
This is what an ASRAAM "sees" .
The picture I am talking about is on this French pdf :
h*tp://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=522877

Then , some posters are saying that using an IR missile seeker as an IRST is a given , far from it .
Most IR dogfighting missiles have a gas cooling device who can cool down the seeker for few minutes only , time to aquire the target and support the heat cone when they are making mach 3 during the flight .
The Mica has a very different cooling system , it takes 120 seconds to start running (during take off) and it keeps the seeker at a freezing temperature for 10 hours
An ASRAAM or a AIM-9X can 't do that , sorry to say . Then , if the Seeker 's aquisition range was no better than the Magic2 , why are we using it as an IRST ? 

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8538/rafmicair.jpg" width="614" height="367" />

Cheers .
 
 
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Bluewings12       12/24/2009 9:43:50 PM
The curious posters will look closely at the drawing I posted and will notice one thing .
The EM Mica can be used as secondary radars , the seekers are using the aircraft main power while on the rail .
Can the Amraam do that ?
 
Cheers .
 
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warpig       12/24/2009 11:40:54 PM

Just a quick post . Regarding the IR Mica , I don 't have the time right now to dig the pdf but I am pretty sure that the seeker uses a 128x128 dual band focal plane imaging  (so 256x256 in software) , the Blk II (not in use yet) uses a different focal plane array .

The good thing about the seeker is that it is keeping in memory the leading edges angles (wings , flaps , tail) formed with the main heat signature ~the engine~ by sorting out the difference in the heat signature .

 
*IF* that describes the seeker on all MICA IR today, then all MICA IR have had their original seekers replaced by a much newer and much more advanced design (that is comparible to the AIM-9X and I would guess the ASRAAM), because that is far more sophisticated than the seeker that equipped MICA IRs as otiginally made.  I'd love to read about it if there is any documentation available.
 
 
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jackjack       12/25/2009 12:22:11 AM
"I don 't have the time right now to dig the pdf but I am pretty sure that the seeker uses a 128x128 dual band focal plane imaging  "
 
thats ok, we'll wait, so far you have got 1 out if 3, it is dual band,
but about 30 times less than than an asraam or aim-9 in pixel count and not a focal plane/staring
 
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jackjack       12/25/2009 1:15:01 AM
 
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MK       12/25/2009 7:40:19 AM
@BW,
using MICA EM seeker as a sensor doesn't make sense and the video shows the MICA IR seekers searching .
 
@Warpig,
MICA IR was just introduced somewhere earlier in this decade, not in the 90s. To my knowledge there was no seeker update for this missile, it's about as new as the AIM-9X or ASRAAM. Only the MICA EM was introduced earlier.
 
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