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Subject: 6*F-22 vs 6*Typhoon vs 6*Rafale in the UAE?!
giblets    11/16/2009 4:48:58 AM
According to both Flight Global, and Defence News, other than attending the Dubai airshow, the USAF, RAF, and FAF each sent 6 of their finest fighter aircraft to the desert Kingdom to take part in multinational exercises. Other than adding much fuel to the fire for forum members here! It raises many questions (such as why the USAF was unable to send 1 F-22 to Paris, and can now send 6 to the UAE, despite no drop in operational tempo). And will the F22 and Typhoon not be in the air at the same time again?
 
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french stratege       12/18/2009 3:51:03 AM
In peace time, no air force even USAF has a 100% or 90% availability rate.
Normal availability rate are between 55 and 70% including in USAF.
Rafale is a young plane and our stockpile were not adequate especially for the small batch of navy Rafale F1 but it is changing.Now like every air force we have a strategic stockpile for war operations.
If we were to prepare for WW3, we would not spend only 2% of our GDP but 10!
Rafale scoring in UAE was good and expected considering condition of exercise.
Unfortunately it says nothing on real capability versus F22.
GF0012: DACT exercise are scripted but in this case it was by UAE.
 
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french stratege       12/18/2009 3:54:53 AM
Nota bene
Normal availability rate are between 55 and 70% including in USAF.

It is compared to total inventory in squadron.Of course in exercises abroad it goes often close to 90% since only the available part of squadrons are deployed and maintenance activity is reinforced.
 
 
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Das Kardinal       12/18/2009 4:45:16 AM

In peace time, no air force even USAF has a 100% or 90% availability rate.

Normal availability rate are between 55 and 70% including in USAF.

Rafale is a young plane and our stockpile were not adequate especially for the small batch of navy Rafale F1 but it is changing.Now like every air force we have a strategic stockpile for war operations.

If we were to prepare for WW3, we would not spend only 2% of our GDP but 10!

Rafale scoring in UAE was good and expected considering condition of exercise.

Unfortunately it says nothing on real capability versus F22.

GF0012: DACT exercise are scripted but in this case it was by UAE.


This is interesting. The UAE probably wanted to make this a test of how well the Rafale would perform in the missions it would most likely do in UAE service. The whole "6 AASM and 3 MICA fired in one minute" sounds a lot like "Look we can smoke nine Iranian targets in one pass !". 
Given the stakes, I'd doubt the UAE made it a cakewalk, they probably insisted on "realistic" simulated weapon performance for eg.
 
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FCUS       12/18/2009 4:54:36 AM
Rafale vs Typhoon:
1st round: 4 - 0 (with degraded A2A armament)
2nd round: 3-1 (even more degraded A2A armament)

F22 vs Rafale:
F22 shot down one Rafale in six rounds (but I suppose the F22 was built to shoot a targets from a long distance, and not for dogfights and it must have been degraded not to show its full capabilities or smthing...)

In air combat, its OSF allowed the Rafale to visually identify targets up to 30/40 kms (visual identification in A2A combat is usually between 3 to 5kms). In electronic warfare, the Rafales detected ground-air threats that the F-16 CJ had not seen, while it is their main purpose. A Rafale was also able to simulate the firing of six air-ground munitions (A2SM) of 6 different targets at a distance of 20 to 40 kilometers, then fired three MICAs, all in one minute - showing the multirole capability of the aircraft.

sources (in french):
*ttp://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/  (says it got its info from Colonel Fabrice GRANDCLAUDON, commander of the 1/7 Provence squadron)
*ttp://lemamouth.blogspot.com/2009/12/la-raf-nest-plus-ce-quelle-est.html

source (in english):


 
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gf0012-aust       12/18/2009 7:02:15 AM


GF0012: DACT exercise are scripted but in this case it was by UAE.

1 - guess which country provided white?
2 - The UAE wouldn't have access to everyones data - the only common link lies with whoever manages white
3 - refer to 1
 
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Reactive       12/18/2009 7:03:55 AM
Still Currently a completely unverified rumour. You CANT take random blog posts not supported anywhere else (especially when they make bold claims that you might expect the frogs to trumpet more if true).
 
I take the F22 pilot interview more seriously because it sounds very much as if no enemy aicraft put sights on it - the pilot certainly didnt say "there was a hairy moment against a rafale where I woulda been splashed as it's such an incredible plane"....  ya know - until a REAL SOURCE comes out and supports any of the rumours currently posted on ONE BLOG AND REPEATED ELSEWHERE then this is no different to the "typhoon locks on, defeats F22" story. If the Rafale performed as described on the blog then there will be OFFICIAL announcements/press releases by the french, end of.
 
Sometimes I do seriously consider making fake blogpost references external to this site and see how long it is before FS and BW use them.
 
And all of the above ignores the fact that DACT are exactly as gf describes, loaded combat scenarios, not a platform face-off. 
 
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french stratege       12/18/2009 7:34:03 AM
Those comments are done by 2 well respected french defense journalist on information done by official conference in french ministry of defense about debriefing of pilots and commanders.
There is no reason to consider them as uniformed rumors.
DACT are scripted and sometime, a force play tactics of a given adversary like a russian equiped air force
But in this case UAE wanted to know how aircrafts performed at their best and to test sensibility of claimed performance which explain they ask the french to redo combat with diminished performance for their weapons (i.e mica) to see how kill ratio was affected.
 
Rafale have done well (including in close gun combat with F22 but it is secondary since real capabilities of F22 matter in BVR).
I have never seriously doubt about it (against Typhoon) that since I know our industry and its tech level.
And some technical evalution like those of Dutch air force procurement who are professionals.
Also informal discussions within french defense establishment have alway said that Rafale will be better than Typhoon, once Rafale will be a the right standard i.e F3).
I doubt British have scripted an intent to loose confrontation in front of gulf state representative while they still want to export it.
 
It is the first exercise with F3 which a is a magnitude vs early half finished F1, and which even add significant capabilities over F2 in BVR with better data fusion, ESM/RWR, and especially total silent intercept with mica IR, Spectra and OSF.
I just wait for Rafale F3+AESA then F4 evaluation in BVR.
The real test is against F22 in BVR when americans will accept to do it.And I'm confident result will surprise some even I consider still F22 as best AtoA platform.
 
 
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Hamilcar       12/18/2009 8:17:08 AM
FS> USAF war rates are well above 80%. We fly at war status now in the CONUS. 9-11 you know. French situation as stated are from your own air force reports as in Le Monde this past year and backed up by actual Afghanistan deployments
 
That took everything you had to do and you STILL had to piggyback off the USAF and USN-even for defense of your carrier since your own surface escort forces are frankly a joke. In reciprocity, however that French sub did do very good work. A small nuke does have some advantages in brown water warfare.  

One more thing FCUS,repeating blog LIES and rumors, shows that you are not a credible source nor can provide one.
 

 
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french stratege       12/18/2009 8:40:16 AM
FS> USAF war rates are well above 80%. We fly at war status now in the CONUS. 9-11 you know. French situation as stated are from your own air force reports as in Le Monde this past year and backed up by actual Afghanistan deployments
A: We are not in war
B: just check current USAF average availability rate - We have problems but you also
 
 
Jan 9/08: Air Combat Command officials clear 60% of the F-15A-D fleet for flying status, and recommends a limited return to flight for those planes that have cleared all inspections. The
 
I have a good laugh.You are complely deluded.
 
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Das Kardinal       12/18/2009 10:56:59 AM

FS> USAF war rates are well above 80%. We fly at war status now in the CONUS. 9-11 you know. French situation as stated are from your own air force reports as in Le Monde this past year and backed up by actual Afghanistan deployments

A: We are not in war

B: just check current USAF average availability rate - We have problems but you also

 


 

Jan 9/08: Air Combat Command officials clear 60% of the F-15A-D fleet for flying status, and recommends a limited return to flight for those planes that have cleared all inspections. The
 

I have a good laugh.You are complely deluded.


To be fair, those F15 are relatively old airframes, no ? Directly comparing them with a new plane isn't a... well fair comparison. 
To address GF's point, yes it would be nice to have other sources. But Secret Défense is usually viewed as a serious source in the military information community in France. In short it's not some pimple-faced fanboy wanking over his favorite plane in a dim basement :-)
 
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