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Subject: 6*F-22 vs 6*Typhoon vs 6*Rafale in the UAE?!
giblets    11/16/2009 4:48:58 AM
According to both Flight Global, and Defence News, other than attending the Dubai airshow, the USAF, RAF, and FAF each sent 6 of their finest fighter aircraft to the desert Kingdom to take part in multinational exercises. Other than adding much fuel to the fire for forum members here! It raises many questions (such as why the USAF was unable to send 1 F-22 to Paris, and can now send 6 to the UAE, despite no drop in operational tempo). And will the F22 and Typhoon not be in the air at the same time again?
 
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mustang22       11/18/2009 1:51:07 PM





I guess we'll have to wait for a resurgent Germany to once again extend it's borders to the Atlantic and the Cheese Eaters capitualte once again... before we see a USAF F22 vs Vichy France's Rafale...










Or we could wait for World War III to be fought on America's soil, for a change, with American cities being destroyed and American civilians caught in the middle and millions of American soldiers salughtered, and then we'd see afterwards if some commentators would still be so quick to call others surrender monkeys.  http://www.strategypage.com/Images/emthdown.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" />







Did they, or did they not surrender? We had one of those wars btw. Sometime back around the ~1770s with a bunch of rag tag settlers fighting what was one of, if not the most powerful military in the world at the time. We didn't surrender and we kicked them all the way back to their side of the big pond.






Oh yes, compare the american war of Independance with WW1 and WW2. Right. <rolleyes> 

Good thing back then said powerful military had to operate across an ocean, and funnily you forget to mention how this rag-tag bunch got help from the other powerful military of the time, eh ?

What I say is, America never experienced anything as traumatic and destructive as the two world wars fought on European soil. If I wanted to be rude I'd say that Pearl Harbour and 9/11 were small farts on the European scale of experienced war and destruction (which goes far beyond the world wars as well). 

Good for America, frankly. But please don't confuse historical and geographical luck with an innate right to disparage everyone else.






 Now on something else, BW's idea made m laugh in a "lol, wtf ?" way. Seriously... proposing to shoot for real, even with warheads removed ? Those are still missiles we're talking about, big metal spears that go very fast. Just imagine one of those hitting the cockpit... mashed pilot au menu !


Honestly, luck? I had no problem with any of the points you were making until that sentence. You might want to say those European countries that were being ravaged were lucky that there ever was a Pearl Harbor.
 
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Bluewings12       11/18/2009 7:31:10 PM
Hi everybody , hi Kardinal .
It is my first post in this thread , so how can I read :
""Now on something else, BW's idea made m laugh in a "lol, wtf ?" way. Seriously... proposing to shoot for real, even with warheads removed ?""
 
Huh ???  You are confusing me with FS . He said so , not me ! (?)
Das K , I really have the inside desire to tell you to f**k o** ... But I will not while you deserve it .
Why ? Because you spotted obvious trolling (from FS) and you though "BW" ! 
You 'll better apologize AND behave or I will not talk to you anymore .
 
FS , were you drunk when you posted such nonsense ? 
No Country , no Pilots would fight for nothing with "almost real" weapons . Never .
It is all I have to say on this matter . 
 
Giblets ;
""As for Rafale vs Typhoon, think it does exactly what it says on the tin!""
 
lol ! Nice one , really :-)
Fortunatly , the name has nothing to do with it . I have been thinking about such a possible fight for years now and my personal view is that the Typhoon doesn 't have any meaningfull edge beside agressivity . The Typhoon is a very agressive fighter and in British hands , you can expect the best . On the other hand , the Rafale can match the Typhoon 's manoevers (unless they are both VERY high) and Rafale 's ECMs are very hard to beat . Again , I expect Mica IR to score at 30km .
I say 30km because both aircraft 's ECMs will more or less negates each other and the longest ranged IR missile will win the day . It hasn 't been proofed in real life because the full use of ECMs is forbiden .
 
Rafale against F-22 ? I could bet on the outcome but I would like to see it .
As usual , the problem is to put a missile on each other . If it is not possible , we are in cannon territory and the Rafale is no slutch there .
The Rafale needs to fly high and fire from the hip at medium range IR Micas with the help from Spectra if the F-22 is using its radar . If the F-22 doesn 't use its radar it takes the risk to come into LOBL of IR Mica which is a bad thing as the F-22 doesn 't have this kind of capability (weapon bays) .
If the F-22 is using its radar (most probable option) , there is a good probability that Rafale 's very advanced RWR will get few bleeps , maybe not enough to get a very precise bearing but enough to warn the pilot and start computing a possible response from Spectra Aesa antennas . 
On the other side , the RBE2 will not see the F-22 until medium to short range . The fight is tight , really tight .
To me , it will end up dogfight . The Dassault fighter may win in such situation ...
 
Cheers .
 

 
 
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albywan       11/18/2009 10:12:31 PM



Oh yes, compare the american war of Independance with WW1 and WW2. Right. <rolleyes> 

Good thing back then said powerful military had to operate across an ocean, and funnily you forget to mention how this rag-tag bunch got help from the other powerful military of the time, eh ?

American's seem to forget too often that France "saved" them from British Colonialism... Maybe France should give the US a momento to remind them of the freedom and liberty gained through a alliance with France - maybe a small statue...
 

 

 
 
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sentinel28a       11/19/2009 12:52:27 AM
First of all, Das Kard, the US has fought a war as devastating to the country as WWI or WWII--the Civil War.  1 in 4 male Americans dead or crippled.  Places in the South such as Georgia and the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia didn't recover for 30 years.  We're still living with the effects of that war.  The South was living on almost nothing when the war ended.  So yes, we have fought a nasty war like that, and we were fighting each other.  Now imagine what we can do to someone who invades us!
 
Second of all, only a fool or someone who doesn't read history thinks the French are surrender monkeys.  The French Army were the ones to beat from the Hundred Years War to Waterloo, and that's not bad.  Even in 1940, the French collapse was a political one; there were some damn tough French fighters in WWII.  And what about Verdun?  The French leadership might've sucked donkey nuts, but the French soldiers were tough hombres--and still are.  I wouldn't want to fight them.
 
 
 
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Das Kardinal       11/19/2009 1:45:28 AM
BW : sorry then, I guess reading pages of comments with imbricated quotes can get confusing sometimes. So it was FS who had the... idea. Well that wasn't the best idea he ever had :-D
Of course one could design training missiles that would deliberately avert from the target in the last meters, but would anyone feel secure, since a "miss" could mean a hit then ? 

Sentinel : indeed, the Civil War was a destructive and traumatizing affair. BTW I think it should be studied a little more in the French school curriculum (I suspect other European curricula don't mention it much either) since it was a very important period of American history, and can arguably be considered as one of the first "modern" wars.
 
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gf0012-aust       11/19/2009 4:31:16 AM
 and can arguably be considered as one of the first "modern" wars.

IIRC, the american civil war still holds the "record" for having the most new technologies and concepts ever fielded in war.  I'm sure one of the cousins can trot them out - but I think there were over 60 decisive technology changers fielded.  I used to have a book on it but unfort allowed someone to borrow the damn thing and they lost it

certainly the first execution of the principles of total war
the first use of trains for logistics
the largest logistic trains ever deployed right up until ww1
the first powered non sail naval wars
the first use of the submarine
the first use of aviation assets (balloons) as battlefield observers and recce
the first use of turreted weapons
the first use of hi-rate machine guns
the establishment of a medical corp and battlefield surgical teams

etc......

one only has to look at how amny european militaries had observors embedded with both sides and how quickly some of those new technologies were adopted by european militaries

if any of the mil historians or US posters can refer me to some suitable publications I wouldn't mind researching it again as it was years ago when I first reviewed it.



 
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Bluewings12       11/19/2009 8:20:29 AM
DK :
""BW : sorry then, I guess reading pages of comments with imbricated quotes can get confusing sometimes.""
 
Ok then , fine . No big deal :-)
 
Cheers .
 
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eldnah       11/19/2009 9:20:58 AM


 and can arguably be considered as one of the first "modern" wars.



IIRC, the american civil war still holds the "record" for having the most new technologies and concepts ever fielded in war.  I'm sure one of the cousins can trot them out - but I think there were over 60 decisive technology changers fielded.  I used to have a book on it but unfort allowed someone to borrow the damn thing and they lost it




certainly the first execution of the principles of total war

the first use of trains for logistics

the largest logistic trains ever deployed right up until ww1

the first powered non sail naval wars

the first use of the submarine

the first use of aviation assets (balloons) as battlefield observers and recce

the first use of turreted weapons

the first use of hi-rate machine guns

the establishment of a medical corp and battlefield surgical teams




etc......




one only has to look at how amny european militaries had observors embedded with both sides and how quickly some of those new technologies were adopted by european militaries





if any of the mil historians or US posters can refer me to some suitable publications I wouldn't mind researching it again as it was years ago when I first reviewed it.









John Keegan, the eminent British military historian has just releaed a new book The American Civil War that is worth reading.
 
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Bluewings12       11/19/2009 6:49:30 PM
FS :
""Now if we see such a deployment, it probably means that UAE want to analyse performance of those fighter in detail""
 
The UAE didn 't want anything , each Nation choose which aircraft to send .
The fact that the USAF decided to send F-22s is important in itself . For the very first time , the F-22 is flying with (and most probably also against) various types of fighters . That means or : 1) the Americans wants to know what the F-22 is really capable of , or : 2) they expect the fighter to perform well . The answer is probably both .
However , it is true that the UAE will run and watch the "show" carefully .
Myself , I don 't expect to read much on the public domain about the results .
Trying out the F-22 against Rafale , Typhoon , M2000-5F and M2000-9 (the best non-US western aircraft) will be telling .
 
1-5-5-E 's link :
""The exercise consisted of 7 Typhoons from XI Sqn, American F-15C Eagles , French Mirage 2000-5, Saudi F-15C Eagles, Emirates Mirage 2000-9 and F-16 Block 60"" 

Yep . The 2000-5Fs where from the famous EC 01.002 "Cigognes" Squadron based here in Dijon . 
This year , right now in fact , the most capable Western fighters are drilling with and against each other (rolling eyes) .
I expect a new thread as soon as something will have transpired .
 
The Rafale will be under scrutiny by the UAE (they want it so far) , so I guess that the FAF in the name of France and Dassault will try to run the show in AtoA and use every tricks allowed by the RoE of the excercise . I don 't know how far the French can go within the limits , but it is going to be hot .
I am still trying to find who the 8 French Rafale Pilots are (for the 6 aicraft) but they must be some of the finest .
I also expect the F-22 and Typhoon Drivers to be very experimented .
Sure , it sounds promissing :-)
 
FS :
""I guess that F22 has benefited of Rafale deploiement to red flag to derisk a direct confrontation.""
 
Yeah , possibly .
 
""Or Eurofighter could be here to fight F22 then Rafale and at the end UAE get the results.""
 
Obviously .
 
""It is a problem if we have to use our best ECM vs a F22 which would sniff every trons.""
 
The Rafale will also sniff everything and the Eurofighter a good part of it . The fact is that it is not a problem anymore FS . We all have to know one day or another what can be done when we use our best fighters , surely the UAE excercise is the first of many others . We (all of us) might not show everything at the first try but it will help us to push further the NATO integration amongst latest platforms . I see it as a very important step .
 
Cheers .
 
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One Five Five Echo       11/19/2009 7:48:36 PM
This year , right now in fact , the most capable Western fighters are drilling with and against each other (rolling eyes) .
I expect a new thread as soon as something will have transpired .
 
Not sure what you are trying to say here with "rolling eyes".  The article I quoted was talking about the 2008 edition of ATLC, I posted that because some people seemed confused as to what ATLC was about.
 
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