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Subject: 6*F-22 vs 6*Typhoon vs 6*Rafale in the UAE?!
giblets    11/16/2009 4:48:58 AM
According to both Flight Global, and Defence News, other than attending the Dubai airshow, the USAF, RAF, and FAF each sent 6 of their finest fighter aircraft to the desert Kingdom to take part in multinational exercises. Other than adding much fuel to the fire for forum members here! It raises many questions (such as why the USAF was unable to send 1 F-22 to Paris, and can now send 6 to the UAE, despite no drop in operational tempo). And will the F22 and Typhoon not be in the air at the same time again?
 
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french stratege       12/17/2009 9:00:02 AM
It has never happened and will not happen.
Like all the historical use of french aircrafts versus Mig 21 or 23 or other by Israelies with MIII in 1967 or 1973 or South African in Angola had proved it.
If M2000-5 was the most liked aircraft of Indian air force, it is for a reason.
 
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mabie       12/17/2009 9:00:59 AM


 

Excellent link, Mabie.

 

Thank you.


 

H.
You're welcome.. and thanks for fixing the link.




 
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One Five Five Echo       12/17/2009 9:17:48 AM

F-22 Raptors return from training in Middle East

 Six F-22 Raptor pilots returned Wednesday to Langley Air Force Base from a five-week training mission in the Middle East. Their trip marked the controversial aircraft's first extended test under harsh desert conditions.

The pilots, who are part of the 27th Fighter Squadron of Langley's 1st Fighter Wing, spent most of the deployment carrying out simulated combat missions at a training center in the United Arab Emirates, the Air Force said. They practiced against military pilots from Pakistan, Jordan, France and Britain.

The exercise proved that desert conditions such as harsh sand storms and high temperatures don't diminish the Raptor's capabilities, said Lt. Col. Lance Pilch, the squadron's commander.

"In every test we did, the Raptors just blew the competition out of the water," Pilch said. "Their stats were off the chart."
 
 
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french stratege       12/17/2009 9:34:45 AM


F-22 Raptors return from training in Middle East


 Six F-22 Raptor pilots returned Wednesday to Langley Air Force Base from a five-week training mission in the Middle East. Their trip marked the controversial aircraft's first extended test under harsh desert conditions.

The pilots, who are part of the 27th Fighter Squadron of Langley's 1st Fighter Wing, spent most of the deployment carrying out simulated combat missions at a training center in the United Arab Emirates, the Air Force said. They practiced against military pilots from Pakistan, Jordan, France and Britain.


The exercise proved that desert conditions such as harsh sand storms and high temperatures don't diminish the Raptor's capabilities, said Lt. Col. Lance Pilch, the squadron's commander.


"In every test we did, the Raptors just blew the competition out of the water," Pilch said. "Their stats were off the chart."

 


No reason to doubt about that since Rafale and F22 were prevented to fight each other in DACT except in few gun training were it seems that F22 shot Rafale at least one time (nothing is said for Rafale victories against F22).
Even if we assume 0 victory for Rafale vs F22, it is limited at most to a 1 vs 0 exchange in gun air combat.
We are as well now convinced that  for Rafale also "their stats were off the chart." as well except we did not really fought F22.

 
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One Five Five Echo       12/17/2009 9:36:21 AM
Even if we assume 0 victory for Rafale vs F22, it is limited at most to a 1 vs 0 exchange in gun air combat.
We are as well now convinced that  for Rafale also "their stats were off the chart." as well except we did not really fought F22.
 
Well dude, you go on thinking that if it makes you feel good.
 
 
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french stratege       12/17/2009 11:04:48 AM
It makes us feel good since France has already ordered 180 Rafale F3 (including conversion to F3 standard) including last batch full F3+ and all to be delivered by 2016.
Plus 110 updated M2000 D (to come) and-5, and almost a thousand cruise missiles.
Which still makes French air force world second in air projection power quality in average by 2016 (Isreal has less, and UK will have no US dependant F35 operational by 2016, or Russia will not have PakFa operational by 2016).
Plus a stockpile of almost 2000 BVR missiles by 2016 including 200 meteor to be ordered in 2010.
Such a stockpile is 3 time Isreal BVR stockpile or 6 time those of Turkey for example.
 
The fact we are able to project at least (operational contract) 140 navy and air force top of the line fighter every where in the world it not a bad fact.
Considering that rumors speak about french massive quality advantage (combo of equipement and training)  in air to air combat with Rafale even versus some 4th generation platforms like SU30 MKI with scoring ratio between 10 to 20 in our advantage, we can relax.
Maybe it is not 100 to 1 scoring ratio like F22 but it is still good enough for us.
Considering superior quality factor , we can badly wound any other air force in the world  including Russia and China (if we can get close each other) except USA.
And obtain air superiority against any less than 500 aircrafts air force.
For me we have not enough equipment for our armed forces (I want more SSN, more aircraft carriers, more Rafale and quickier...), but we are far away to be considered as a minor military power.
 
 
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Reactive       12/17/2009 12:11:25 PM

It makes us feel good since France has already ordered 180 Rafale F3 (including conversion to F3 standard) including last batch full F3+ and all to be delivered by 2016.

Plus 110 updated M2000 D (to come) and-5, and almost a thousand cruise missiles.

Which still makes French air force world second in air projection power quality in average by 2016 (Isreal has less, and UK will have no US dependant F35 operational by 2016, or Russia will not have PakFa operational by 2016).

Plus a stockpile of almost 2000 BVR missiles by 2016 including 200 meteor to be ordered in 2010.

Such a stockpile is 3 time Isreal BVR stockpile or 6 time those of Turkey for example.

 

The fact we are able to project at least (operational contract) 140 navy and air force top of the line fighter every where in the world it not a bad fact.

Considering that rumors speak about french massive quality advantage (combo of equipement and training)  in air to air combat with Rafale even versus some 4th generation platforms like SU30 MKI with scoring ratio between 10 to 20 in our advantage, we can relax.

Maybe it is not 100 to 1 scoring ratio like F22 but it is still good enough for us.

Considering superior quality factor , we can badly wound any other air force in the world  including Russia and China (if we can get close each other) except USA.

And obtain air superiority against any less than 500 aircrafts air force.

For me we have not enough equipment for our armed forces (I want more SSN, more aircraft carriers, more Rafale and quickier...), but we are far away to be considered as a minor military power.

 

LOL
 
Referring to previous post - yes you must feel delighted that in the real world (unlike training exercises) each rafale can only be killed once : ) 
 
 
You're sounding desperate/delusional - I think you and BW fear the inevitable leaks that give us an indication of just how well the Rafale ACTUALLY performed - I have been looking forward to this for a long time - and sooner or later, whether it's this or another exercise, we will be able to show you empirically just how effective your turkey really is.
 
The F22 vs Rafale debate for a long time had the french posters claiming parity, in some cases fantasists like yourself and BW even decided that the rafale might be superior in some ways - soon you will discover that it's not just the F22 that has the upper hand on the rafale - but in fact a great deal of other 4 and 4.5 gen planes too ; )
 
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Beazz       12/17/2009 1:00:41 PM

Good finds Gentlemen .

 

So , the F-22 is still undefeated , F-16blk60s and M2000-5Fs-M2000-9s were "no competition" . Since we know that the Raptors flew on the Blue side alongside Rafales and Typhoons , they probably did the air cover (escort , support and CAPs) . It seems that they did an outstanding job , even better than expected , with pilots who flew only one hundred hours on the jet . It proves one more time the excellent design of the fighter and its systems .


I would like to know a bit more about how the BVR combats were conducted , it would help us to draw a clearer picture .Has it been seen on radar ? Has it been using some electronic counter mesures ? What kind of tactics the F-22s were using (Leader-Wingmen) ? Altitude , speed (supercruise) , aspect , etc ?

I would give happily one day wedge just to read a full report :-)


Sure , this plane rocks .

 

So , the Rafale scored 4-0 against the Typhoon , well this is rather impressive for a fighter often and wrongly seen as a bomb truck . It proves that the Rafale is a better AtoA platform than the Typhoon ~as many always said .


(Mister J. Lake must be pale as a white horse)

 

Here too , I 'd like to read a full report . From where I stand , it has to be the result and the addition of multiple details who shows the better performance of the Rafale 's systems . The article also makes a reference to the fact that the Rafales detected many SAM sites unseen by the US F-16CJs (thanks Spectra) and visual identification at 40km (BVR) with the OSF . Also , firing 9 weapons at 9 different targets (air and ground) in less than a minute demonstrate the excellence of Spectra and RBE2 working together (fusion) as well as the FCS and weapons employed (AASM and Mica) .


It is a performance very hard to beat in "multi-role" .


 

I am a bit "dubitatif" regarding the gun only combat against the F-22s ... The article says that the 2 fighters were confronted few times (à plusieurs reprises) and that the F-22 scored once . What about the other times ? Was it multiple draws ? I wander ...

 

Cheers .


 


Listen to this guy and get all the clearer picture you need goofball. It's fairly obvious he is literally choming at the bit to say more but cannot. If you listen to what he does say it is obvious that NO plane there was any competition for the Raptor. And when he says they flew AGAINST pilots with *3000* hours in other a/c that can only be the UK and France from the nations there. And as he said, the F22 was UNDEFEATED and did it with ease. Not to mention F22 guys were putting up pilots with only 100 hours in the jet for petes sake. I think that is safe to say these were certainly not the best of the best the US has to offer in terms of Raptor pilots and they still had a field day. Must stink to be a loser Rafail eh BW? lol
 
Beazz
 
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One Five Five Echo       12/17/2009 1:08:37 PM
The fact we are able to project at least (operational contract) 140 navy and air force top of the line fighter every where in the world it not a bad fact.
 
LOL.  "You" don't even have 140 top of the line fighters.  And "you" can't project a whopping six aircraft to the Middle East without foreign assistance.  And "you" can't even protect your own guys on the ground from air attack by some rusty third world Frogfoot on your own.
 
What kills me about you guys is that you go into other people's big combined air exercise, do your small part just like everyone else does, and then when it's all over come out patting yourselves on the back like it couldn't have happened without you.  This despite the fact that in the real world you can't do a damn thing if you dont have massive support from other nations that actually bothered to invest in the type of assets that make tactical fighters more than air show material.  For a guy whose handle implies that he knows something about "stragegy" you sure have a serious lack clue about the big picture, namely the real purpose of air power and your forces' ability to accomplish it.
 
But, like I said, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and pretend that failing to get any kills on the F-22 in exactly the type of air combat the F-22 is supposed to avoid, somehow makes up for all that.
 
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Reactive       12/17/2009 1:36:40 PM
The first "stealth fighter" ever developed and fielded is somewhat of an "ironclad" moment where one platform has total dominance over its peers.
 
When the F35 is deployed in similar tests in a few years time we will see similar results; Similar FCS to F22. Similar A2A doctrine.
 
I think there'll be more info emerging from pilots and crew here and there over the next month.. again, uncited sources from an blog with no sources are NOT evidence of jack.
 
 
 
 
 
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