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Subject: 6*F-22 vs 6*Typhoon vs 6*Rafale in the UAE?!
giblets    11/16/2009 4:48:58 AM
According to both Flight Global, and Defence News, other than attending the Dubai airshow, the USAF, RAF, and FAF each sent 6 of their finest fighter aircraft to the desert Kingdom to take part in multinational exercises. Other than adding much fuel to the fire for forum members here! It raises many questions (such as why the USAF was unable to send 1 F-22 to Paris, and can now send 6 to the UAE, despite no drop in operational tempo). And will the F22 and Typhoon not be in the air at the same time again?
 
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Nichevo    I tell you this   12/14/2009 7:39:02 PM
knowing you won't understand it, just as if I spoke in Attic Greek or Early Martian:
The fact it is an export version remove the problem

Signature will be dowgraded, RAM materials will not be the same etc..

Congress would have never funded an export version.

But if UAE accept to do it , it is an entirely different problem.

And moreover it allows Isreal to get it in a better version.

Rumor existed for days.


 

Now Australia is a strong ally of USA but USA can refuse you USAF F22 since you are US dependant.

With UAE it is entirely different since they have the money to buy anything in Europe and in France.

Thye have paid entirely development of M2000-9 or F16E.

Unlike with France, our decision-making on national defense is not driven ENTIRELY by money.

But I will try to put it in a money framework so you will understand it.   If we sell to X, Y and Z, we will make a few billion dollars and drive France out of the third party fighter market, fine, whatever. Let's say this is true.
 
But X, Y, Z, P, D, Q, R, F, or theta will eventually leak important secrets to the Russians or Chinese, or even to France, and then Russia, China or France will be able to make a new fighter that is as good, or almost as good, or even a little better because newer, and the whole US air superiority strategy strategy is down the drain. 
 
Then if it is even possible, we have to build a 6th-generation fighter that will be as much better than the F-22 as the F-22 is better than the Mirage, Rafale, MiG, Su or F-15.  This will cost us many more billions than we made profit on the F-22 sales.  Plus, maybe we lose a battle or a war because we lost air superiority.
 
 
Can you explain how this risk, this entirely unacceptable risk, can clearly and convincingly be avoided?  If not, why do you persist in these fantasies?
 
Tell me, FS, BW...if we would sell YOU the F-22...would you buy it?  Why?  How many?  Would you be interested in buying the F-35?  Why?  How many? 
 
 
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french stratege       12/14/2009 8:34:36 PM
Nichevo
A country wich sell advanced aircraft to a customer and ally, still control aircrafts.
And so has leverage on its military posture and foreign policy.
It is why weapons sales are important.
Moreover we need more than USA, export sales to fund our R&D and optimize our plant capacity.
Now read that and you will understand why USA sold a more advanced F16 to UAE than anything it has in its own force at this time.
h*tps://research.maxwell.af.mil/papers/ay2000/saas/molloy.pdf
 
As a result of this policy, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) has been granted their request to purchase 80 F-16 fighters packed with more advanced technology than those in the current U.S. inventory. These aircraft have a range and avionics capability (among other things) that are superior to U.S. F-16s.8 On the surface, such a transaction seems ludicrous in terms of maintaining technological security and a combat capability advantage. However, the Air Force?s International Affairs and Weapons Division (SAF/IARW) contends there are anti-tamper controls to reduce the risk of this technology being used for unintended purposes.9 Controls can be placed on the aircraft's electronic warfare (EW) and radar system that prevent the buyer from accessing the "source code." Also, the Air Force expects to have its trump cards, the F-22 and the JSF, online to counter these aircraft in the event they become a threat in the distant future. SAF/IARW explains that "there is an advantage to knowing exactly what you're up against," should a friend turn foe. Additionally, they contend there is some degree of control over countries relying on U.S. produced aircraft.
The UAE sale also highlights some of the negative aspects of exporting air technology. In order to compete with countries such as Russia and France—who export their top-of-the-line fighters—the U.S. must offer something better. Had the U.S. not sold F-16s to the UAE they would have most certainly purchased the French Rafale. Therefore, there are advantages to high-tech sales that displace competition such as the Rafale—an aircraft whose capabilities are not fully known—and replace it with a system whose capabilities and limitations are known and quantifiable. Along with this also comes better interoperability with U.S. systems—yet another advantage to capturing the friendly country market.
6
British Air Vice Marshal Tony Mason in his book, Air Power: A Centennial
Appraisal, also comments on these dynamics and the British fear of U.S. domination of
the armaments market. He states that the fear is ?well founded? and goes on to describe a
letter to the U.S. State Department from a senior executive with McDonnell Douglas at
the time of the negotiations in 1992 regarding an F-15 sale to Saudi Arabia. According to
Mason, the writer of this letter expressed concern lest Saudi Arabia should buy EFA (EF2000)
instead of the F-15 because, ?the Saudis would be able to configure their EFAs to
their own specification, and the capabilities of those aircraft could be significantly
enhance in the future without U.S. knowledge, consent or control.?
On the other hand,
the McDonnell Douglas executive muses how,
the sale of the F-15 to Saudi Arabia would significantly impair the ability of Europe?s aircraft industry to develop a next generation fighter that would be sold freely in the Middle East. As a result, this scenario would greatly improve U.S. control over military aircraft operated by other countries and ultimately enhance U.S. competitiveness in the European defense market . . . The serious weakening or even elimination of the foreign competition helps the U.S. to retain its lead in a strategically vital industry, and perhaps more significantly could empower the U.S. to act unilaterally in the future to effectively control the supply of arms to other nations.10
Concerning the more recent UAE deal, profit appears to be far more important than the desire to exert control over a foreign export. As it stands, the sale is worth $6.4 billion to Lockheed Martin. According to SAF/IARW, capturing this investment is also critical for the U.S. to stay on top in air technology and also allows it access to technological improvements of its own fighter fleet (at the foreign customer?s expense). This is primarily because new purchases take advantage of production enhancements and manufacturing change proposals, which allow current-day technologies to be infused into the aircraft. In fact, the UAE?s choice of the 32,000 lb.-thrust F110-GE-132 engine has provided the U.S. Air Force with an opportunity to reap substantial life-cycle
 
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french stratege       12/14/2009 8:50:53 PM
Tell me, FS, BW...if we would sell YOU the F-22...would you buy it?  Why?  How many?  Would you be interested in buying the F-35?  Why?  How many? 
 
if we would sell YOU the F-22...would you buy it? NO ..or maybe only one to reverse engineering it and to see what could be interesting http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emteeth.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" alt="" />
F22 air to air performance are great.
But our goal was and is to develop an aircraft which can reasonably match F22, even inferior in AtoA, or at least has enormous scoring ratio against a SU30/SU35
 I.e improvments of Rafale since Pakfa will be also a stealth plane designed to match F22.
 
Would you be interested in buying the F-35?  Why?  How many? 
NO - zero
Rafale F4 (UAE) is already a competitor of F35 even better on some characteristic, and we don't need F35 at all.
 
Advanced aircraft manufacturing (like nuclear submarines) is one of key asset of an independant power.Very few countries have skill and technology to do it alone.And France rank second after USA for that.
It is no question to divert a single euro to buy a US combat plane.
Our limited funding for combat aircraft procurement is entirely devoted to improve our Rafale.And fund a next generation for 2025, alone or in cooperation.
 
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gf0012-aust       12/14/2009 9:27:57 PM
 you can't be serious.
 
you're quoting an academic 2000 discussion paper by a Lt Col (equiv to a Desk Officer in Program Management) as evidence?
 
there is a whole raft of technical detail in there that is horribly outdated and irrelevant in contemp technical terms.
 
good grief, at the esensor level both the singaporean and israeli F-16's are superior to the UAE Vipers.  (and the sings didn't pay the US to develop theirs)
 
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gf0012-aust       12/14/2009 9:28:23 PM
you can't be serious.
 
you're quoting an academic 2000 discussion paper by a Lt Col (equiv to a Desk Officer in Program Management) as evidence?
 
there is a whole raft of technical detail in there that is horribly outdated and irrelevant in contemp technical terms.
 
good grief, at the esensor level both the singaporean and israeli F-16's are superior to the UAE Vipers.  (and the sings didn't pay the US to develop theirs)
 
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jackjack       12/14/2009 9:43:34 PM
but gf, you didnt take into account their rafale goal, its only a matter of time and a snip here and a tuck there
ya get a real sense of achievement when ya do it ya self
"But our goal was and is to develop an aircraft which can reasonably match F22, even inferior in AtoA,"
 
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Nichevo    Close   12/14/2009 11:04:45 PM
but no cigar, FS.  Can you answer the line of reasoning which ended in:
 
Can you explain how this risk, this entirely unacceptable risk, can clearly and convincingly be avoided?  If not, why do you persist in these fantasies?
 
The question of France buying some US a/c was a distraction, yes, but it also points to how readily you would like to get your hands on one to tear it down (live a little - be generous - buy a half-dozen, you might wish to fly 'em as well as copy 'em, or you might break something while tearing down your one copy.  Even the Chinese bought more than ONE from the Russians) and the world has seen how tender we are of avoiding just such an occurrence.  And despite your brave show you would love to get your hands on an F-35.
 
I remind you, (Wiki gives) the program cost as $65 billion.  A suitable replacement (if possible!) would surely run double or more.  Plus the whole war-losing thing.  How much profit could we make on FMS to justify this?  How much would we profit from destroying French aerospace (which it would not do)?

This defies logic.  Refute me if you can.


 
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Nichevo    BTW   12/14/2009 11:07:29 PM
your jealousy is understandable.  How, you think, can the US get countries like UAE to fund their aerospace development, advances in avionics and engines, and we can't con some wogs into propping up Thales and SNECMA likewise?
 
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sinoflex    Incroyable   12/15/2009 12:56:43 AM

It is a last attempt from Congress and USAF pro F22 lobby to maintain F22 chain opened.

So appearance of F22 in UAE.

Please excuse my naivete as someone who is not connected to the defence establishment.  So let me get this right, someone from House or Representatives or the Armed Services Committee passes along a request to the military to send a flight of F-22s on a foreign deployment in the hopes of reestablshing the production line and the Pentagon snaps to.  This in the face of export restrictions and an administration hostile to this eventuality.  Is this really how the chain of command works?  No feedback or intervention from the Department of Defence bureaucracy back to Gates and the White House. 
 
My my, the Americans will really stoop to nothing to prevent Rafale sales.
 
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sentinel28a       12/15/2009 1:45:26 AM
Not the tired old "The Rafale would be selling like hotcakes if it wasn't for those meddling Americans" meme.  I thought we put a stake in the heart of that a long time ago.
 
I used to think the Arabs had the corner on the world's market of self-delusion.  It seems they learned it from the French.
 
 
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