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Subject: 6*F-22 vs 6*Typhoon vs 6*Rafale in the UAE?!
giblets    11/16/2009 4:48:58 AM
According to both Flight Global, and Defence News, other than attending the Dubai airshow, the USAF, RAF, and FAF each sent 6 of their finest fighter aircraft to the desert Kingdom to take part in multinational exercises. Other than adding much fuel to the fire for forum members here! It raises many questions (such as why the USAF was unable to send 1 F-22 to Paris, and can now send 6 to the UAE, despite no drop in operational tempo). And will the F22 and Typhoon not be in the air at the same time again?
 
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Bluewings12       12/14/2009 4:33:58 PM
I just said :
""the USAF is not going to buy back the M2000-9s .""
 
And why not ? In fact , when I think about ...
 
Cheers .
 
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Reactive       12/14/2009 5:41:40 PM
"F35 Trap"
 
 
BW, whether or not you believe wholeheartedly in your own opinions you should accept that generally speaking educated consensus is against you here - there's many amateurs talking about the shortcomings of the F35 even though it is an absolute fact that very few of its "stats" are in the public domain, and the ones that are are those that have been the same since the beginning of the awarding of the contract to LM. 
 
The F35 is going to open up a new dimension (a new era) in air warfare - the first widely produced stealthy strike aircraft, which is in every sense designed to counter the.. vintage viewpoint of A2A/A2G aircraft as being highly manauverable agile birds who win dogfights with amazing agility and superb pilotage - in fact, the F35 is designed to fight in an entirely different way, utilizing sensor fusion, stealth, and the most advanced EW suite ever developed. It's a new era, the rafale is a "never was", a plane that enthusiasts will talk about in future as being fantastic even though it will likely never actually see combat or be produced in quantity or even be exported to a 3rd world country worthy of consideration, the F35's capabilities are ABSOLUTELY unknown to you, you have absolutely no source, no "friend" no access whatsoever other than a fanboy understanding in order to quantify its performance.
 
And I state this here knowing that search engines will pick this page up long after both I, and the F35 are old news -it's a revolution in air-warfare, possibly the last major manned fighter program (though I say that with skepticism) but in every way you quantify the factors that determine how a2a engagements pan out, it is an entire generation ahead of the rafale. 
 
There is no F35 trap, it's currently exceeded EVERY single performance guideline that it has been given (even the malreported FCS rubbish that made SP a while back) which is why every major "allied" airforce will adopt it sooner or later, Japan included.
 
There is NOTHING in the sky except an F22 that has the upper hand vs the F35, and nothing for the forseeable future.
 
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gf0012-aust       12/14/2009 6:15:27 PM

I am not surprised if the US want to sell the F-35 to the UAE .


and within 10-12 years other ME buyers such as the Egyptians, Jordanians, Bahraini's, Omani's and Kuwaitis will be on the buyers list
 
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french stratege       12/14/2009 6:34:12 PM
It is F22 we fear in UAE, not F35,  and it is F22 in a export version whom development would be paid by UAE like they have done with F16E and M2000-9.
I'm sorry gf0012 but it seems that USA is more willing to sell F22 (still in an export version) to arabs to ban Rafale,than to Australia.But since you are US dependant and protected.
 
It is a last attempt from Congress and USAF pro F22 lobby to maintain F22 chain opened.
So appearance of F22 in UAE.
Don't forgot that UAE was the first nation to obtain a US fighter better than anything had at this time (F16 E)
And they are offered THAAD.
However risk is limited since F16 E are locally day and night guarded by americans.
Morover you can be sure that pro isreal lobby will back that in Congress since they will obtain F22 just after.
And it solves problem with Japan.
 
 
 
Both the House and Senate versions of the 2010 defense authorization bill require a report to study the potential for F-22A exports. The House version listed only Japan, while the Senate bill did not restrict the countries involved. Development work would be required before production, however, and is almost certain to require an expensive restart of the F-22 production line when it?s complete.
 
July 13/09: The right-wing Heritage Foundation discusses past and ongoing rationales for F-22 force structures, in ?U.S. Air Force Fifth-Generation Fighter: The F-22A Raptor Requirements Retreat? and ?Congress Should Support the Development of an Allied Variant of the F-22A.?
 
 
 
 
 
 
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french stratege       12/14/2009 6:40:04 PM
Not suprising at all
Remember this document:
Congress can change US law and ban is about USAF version.
 
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gf0012-aust       12/14/2009 6:46:14 PM

I'm sorry gf0012 but it seems that USA is more willing to sell F22 (still in an export version) to arabs to ban Rafale,than to Australia.But since you are US dependant and protected.

for goodness sake.  both australia and germany agreed to join the NPT, and australia agreed to suspend its nuclear program if the US agreed to providing a nuke umbrella.  It was a multi-faceted decision.
 
In addition, for all the blather  coming from heritage, carlisle etal is irrelevant.  F-22 is bound by ITARS and bound by the conditions of the Obey Amendment.  The US will be looking at more f-22's for itself before it sells to others.
 
the us is not interested in selling to japan because it will provide a further political problem of selling to the sth koreans as it will be a "me too" response
 
finally lets get real, the majority of the ITARs release problems in the F-22 are compounded by the fact that its a symbiotic system of systems, you just can't build a coherent export version  - no matter what marketing might say.  Remove critical ewarfare and embedded esensor systems and you end up with what? the US is not going to hand over a plane where critical measurements and elements can be analysed.  Japan leaks like a sieve at the intel level.  How professional and secure do you think the UAE's intel service is?  For goodness sake the best outfit in the ME at a monarchical level are the jordanians, then the best outfit at the state security level are the egyptians.  the UAE couldn't protect a windsock in comparison.
 
 
this is just errant nonsense
 
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french stratege       12/14/2009 6:53:32 PM
The fact it is an export version remove the problem
Signature will be dowgraded, RAM materials will not be the same etc..
Congress would have never funded an export version.
But if UAE accept to do it , it is an entirely different problem.
And moreover it allows Isreal to get it in a better version.
Rumor existed for days.
 
Now Australia is a strong ally of USA but USA can refuse you USAF F22 since you are US dependant.
With UAE it is entirely different since they have the money to buy anything in Europe and in France.
Thye have paid entirely development of M2000-9 or F16E.
 
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gf0012-aust       12/14/2009 7:08:16 PM

Now Australia is a strong ally of USA but USA can refuse you USAF F22 since you are US dependant.

 Here's a tip for you.  This whole business of the F-22 going to allies was started because in 2004 John Ashcroft attended a credentialed military conference in australia and told us point blank that if australia wanted the F-22 then the US would look favourably upon it.  RAAF did an assessment of the F-22 as a matter of course and determined that it was not suitable for future force synergy, force development and force requirements.
 
ever since Ashcrofts speech to us every man and his dog has jumped up and down and said "me too".
 
btw I attended that credentialed briefing in 2004 and know first hand what was said.
 
don't talk about things that you are unaware of or unfamiliar with 
 
 

 
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gf0012-aust       12/14/2009 7:15:21 PM
and a further little tidbit here.  the F-22 offer in 2004 was for production articles - the discussion about export detuned models happened 4 years later by desperate congressmen and deperate LM marketers trying to keep their foot in the dorr for any sale beyond US requirements.
 
so australia would have been able to seek procurement of the USAF article as no export provisions were stipulated.  I would assume that the UK was in the same position as at that stage Aust had not been elevated to UK access levels. (no other countries have those access levels)
 
UAE does not even rate in the first 10 principle allies for access to US level 1 technology
 
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french stratege       12/14/2009 7:33:11 PM
UAE don't ask for access to technology.They have none.Even planes are garded by US personals and maintain by them
Still they obtains F16E which was the most advanced fighter sold to an US ally at this time and even more advanced than US own F16 or F15.
However F16E sale allowed Israel to get F16I.
 
 
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