Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: 6*F-22 vs 6*Typhoon vs 6*Rafale in the UAE?!
giblets    11/16/2009 4:48:58 AM
According to both Flight Global, and Defence News, other than attending the Dubai airshow, the USAF, RAF, and FAF each sent 6 of their finest fighter aircraft to the desert Kingdom to take part in multinational exercises. Other than adding much fuel to the fire for forum members here! It raises many questions (such as why the USAF was unable to send 1 F-22 to Paris, and can now send 6 to the UAE, despite no drop in operational tempo). And will the F22 and Typhoon not be in the air at the same time again?
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Bluewings12       12/10/2009 7:17:35 AM
Heorot :
""That's why I call him The Googler.""
 
lol , it suits him well .
So , the Googler has been googling again with the FAMAS .
While what he says about the bullets and gas system is correct with the old F1 Famas , he posted again an irrelevant link .
Since real experience is always better than anything you can read on the subject , I used the Famas F1 for 7 years and I have never experimented any malfunction , not once . To put that in perspective , during my time I probably fired well over 5000 rounds . The only "bad" thing I could say about the rifle is that it can be a pain in the a** to dismantle for a complete cleaning . I could also add that if one is using very often the rifle to fire grenades (at up to 350m) , the rifle will worn out much quicker because the pressure generated by the special cartridge is enormous .
 
At the time , we were only using french made rounds . I can also say that to "worn out" a Famas , one have to use it in "unlimited burts" setting for a bloody long time , the barrel itself (the second thing to worn out) is good for over 30.000 rounds . The extractor (first thing to worn out) is good for 8.000 to 10.000 rounds .
The Famas is light , short , compact and its accuracy at 150m is simply phenomenal . Using the 3 rounds short burst setting and aiming at the chest will result in 3 hits in the chest .
I have tried the M16A2 in 1985 and I couldn 't archive the same level of performance . I remind people that I was a Sniper and a "good shot" .
 
The French Army is indeed looking for a new rifle for after 2015 . The trials started in 2008 and it seems (?) that the  latest versions of the HK-416 looks good . Anyway , the Famas FELIN still have good days ahead .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       12/10/2009 7:58:23 AM
Regarding the Tamara system , I said :
""NATO has been investigating and the most probable option is the use of a Tamara radar .""
 
I was wrong . Warpig , you corrected me . 
Since the F-117 were EM silent , Tamara could not have tracked them .
155E has it right .
 
Cheers .
 
 
Quote    Reply

Hamilcar       12/10/2009 8:06:47 AM

Heorot :


""That's why I call him The Googler.""

lol , it suits him well .

So , the Googler has been googling again with the FAMAS .


While what he says about the bullets and gas system is correct with the old F1 Famas , he posted again an irrelevant link .

Since real experience is always better than anything you can read on the subject , I used the Famas F1 for 7 years and I have never experimented any malfunction , not once . To put that in perspective , during my time I probably fired well over 5000 rounds . The only "bad" thing I could say about the rifle is that it can be a pain in the a** to dismantle for a complete cleaning . I could also add that if one is using very often the rifle to fire grenades (at up to 350m) , the rifle will worn out much quicker because the pressure generated by the special cartridge is enormous.
 
Have you ever launched a rifle grenade in your life? 

5000 rounds in practice over seven years? Roughly 14 bullets a week? I thought the National Guard was stingy. You really are full of useful information, like how little you really know, and what you actually reveal about yourself.  

 
At the time , we were only using french made rounds . I can also say that to "worn out" a Famas , one have to use it in "unlimited burts" setting for a bloody long time , the barrel itself (the second thing to worn out) is good for over 30.000 rounds . The extractor (first thing to worn out) is good for 8.000 to 10.000 rounds .

The mechanical action is the second thing to go.   The barrel will show throat erosion that is critical in as few as 3000 rounds. So again you talk nonsense.   

The Famas is light , short , compact and its accuracy at 150m is simply phenomenal . Using the 3 rounds short burst setting and aiming at the chest will result in 3 hits in the chest .
 
150 meters? That is long range to you? You are kidding?
 
I have tried the M16A2 in 1985 and I couldn 't archive the same level of performance . I remind people that I was a Sniper and a "good shot" .

 No you weren't and aren't. You just confessed this, though you do not understand it.  

 
The French Army is indeed looking for a new rifle for after 2015 . The trials started in 2008 and it seems (?) that the  latest versions of the HK-416 looks good . Anyway , the Famas FELIN still have good days ahead .

Cheers .

Thanks for the laughter. I enjoyed it.
 
Quote    Reply

jackjack       12/10/2009 9:50:18 AM
as i said thales has become one of our major suppliers, they now manufacture our austeyr rifle in australia
it seems the chinese has a good shot at winning the french rifle comp
 
After the Cold War, many defense companies out of business, including some of the French armed forces for the production of weapons and ammunition companies. The report also said that China also has a new rifle without care for the French army, the adoption of China?s weapons would be a ?diplomatic extra points,? move
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12    back on topic   12/10/2009 10:18:10 AM
It seems that the F-22 Raptors from the 1st Fighter wing of Langley did not play around with the Rafales at Al-Dhafra said a French source .
 
Apparently , the Raptors , Typhoons and Rafales were flying on the same sides while M2000-5Fs and -9s played the "aggressors" .
However , the Typhoons and the Rafales played around outside the official program and the French Officials are "satisfied with the results" .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12    @the Googler   12/10/2009 12:31:32 PM
Since you have never seen , owned or used a Famas , you should keep your mouth shut Herald .
 
Yes I have use the Famas with grenades , how many times ? I don 't know exactly , maybe 20 times ...
Same , I don 't know how many rounds I fired , I said 5000 but it could be 3000 or 8000 (or more) and no , it was not only "practice" but also war Ops . Anyway it is not your business and I couldn 't care less about what you think .
 
For the sake of truth , you are also wrong on the barrel erosion . What I said is true , the barrel is given for a minimum theoretical life of 30.000 rounds . During conception and testing , MAS (Manufacture d 'Armes de Saint-Etienne) fired more that 50.000 rounds .
As an example , the HK-416 barrel has a 20.000 round service life but the US Army fired 60.000 rounds during evaluation .
 
When you have no scope , 150m using iron sights is long range when using an assault rifle . I don 't think that you ever fired a gun in your life or you would know better , Googler .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

warpig       12/10/2009 1:12:49 PM

It seems that the F-22 Raptors from the 1st Fighter wing of Langley did not play around with the Rafales at Al-Dhafra said a French source .
 

Apparently , the Raptors , Typhoons and Rafales were flying on the same sides while M2000-5Fs and -9s played the "aggressors" .
 

 
As was pointed out/predicted over two weeks ago by someone who, based on his many various posts, obviously has personal knowledge in the subject of aircraft and flight operations.  The same would be true if all three jets went to RED FLAG together:
 
 
One Five Five Echo       11/21/2009 7:01:01 AM

A poster on another forum claimed that the three aircraft were/ are supposed to be on the same side. Intersting that Flight global stated that the aircraft were already involved in the war games on the 19th, then on the 20th said they were not.

If all three had been in the exercises then yes they would have been "on the same side".
 
Flight Global got the story wrong, nothing new there.
 

 
Quote    Reply

Lynstyne       12/10/2009 4:04:52 PM

Since you have never seen , owned or used a Famas , you should keep your mouth shut Herald .

 

Yes I have use the Famas with grenades , how many times ? I don 't know exactly , maybe 20 times ...

Same , I don 't know how many rounds I fired , I said 5000 but it could be 3000 or 8000 (or more) and no , it was not only "practice" but also war Ops . Anyway it is not your business and I couldn 't care less about what you think .


 

For the sake of truth , you are also wrong on the barrel erosion . What I said is true , the barrel is given for a minimum theoretical life of 30.000 rounds . During conception and testing , MAS (Manufacture d 'Armes de Saint-Etienne) fired more that 50.000 rounds .


As an example , the HK-416 barrel has a 20.000 round service life but the US Army fired 60.000 rounds during evaluation .


 

When you have no scope , 150m using iron sights is long range when using an assault rifle . I don 't think that you ever fired a gun in your life or you would know better , Googler .

 

Cheers .


 

 

 

 
As a brit im not going to join the great faulty rifle debate lest some one mention the SA80.  But in the spirit of goodwill
im going to enlighten you as to hamilcars point re your claims.
the point is that regardless of wether its 3000, 5000, or 8000 is a very low number of rounds fired over the period you mentioned. especially as you claim to be a sniper - a career which is more likely to see 5000 rounds a month going down range.
Now it could be that you only used the FAMAS as a secondry weapon and so just put a few rounds through it a month to maintain proficiency - but that isnt how you came across.
Hence hamilcar has pointed out that you appear to be lying about being a Sniper. 
 
 
 
 

 

 
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       12/10/2009 5:17:13 PM
Lynstyne :
""the point is that regardless of wether its 3000, 5000, or 8000 is a very low number of rounds fired over the period you mentioned. especially as you claim to be a sniper - a career which is more likely to see 5000 rounds a month going down range.""
 
5000 rounds a month !?? I am 46 and if any regiment in the British Forces gives that many ammo to a Commando to train with , I sign up again !
When I was in the GFCA (1981-1984) which is the French Air Force Commandos , we fired about 2 clips/week (50 rounds) with the Famas , sometimes less . From what I ' ve heard at the time from foreign Commandos , it was rather similar in Germany , England , Sweden . US Marines at Djibouti were firing less than that , far less . I personaly met some US Marines in bars around a beer who told me that they would be happy to fire 2 clips a month  .
 
But you said rightly :
""Now it could be that you only used the FAMAS as a secondry weapon and so just put a few rounds through it a month to maintain proficiency""
 
Yep and I was pretty good at it ;-)
My main weapon from 1983 to 1987 was the FRF1 :
 http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7104/frf1.jpg" width="600" height="373" />
 
During the Sniper school , we would fire around 3 clips a day (30 rounds) against different kind of targets , from man sized target to phone line cables (!) at different ranges . With that rifle , I hit a camping gas cartridge (the small blue ones) at 600m everytime .
 
Cheers .
 

 
Quote    Reply

Nichevo    I didn't know how good I had it   12/11/2009 12:33:22 AM

Lynstyne :


""the point is that regardless of wether its 3000, 5000, or 8000 is a very low number of rounds fired over the period you mentioned. especially as you claim to be a sniper - a career which is more likely to see 5000 rounds a month going down range.""

 

5000 rounds a month !?? I am 46 and if any regiment in the British Forces gives that many ammo to a Commando to train with , I sign up again !

When I was in the GFCA (1981-1984) which is the French Air Force Commandos , we fired about 2 clips/week (50 rounds) with the Famas , sometimes less . From what I ' ve heard at the time from foreign Commandos , it was rather similar in Germany , England , Sweden . US Marines at Djibouti were firing less than that , far less . I personaly met some US Marines in bars around a beer who told me that they would be happy to fire 2 clips a month  .


 

But you said rightly :

""Now it could be that you only used the FAMAS as a secondry weapon and so just put a few rounds through it a month to maintain proficiency""

 

Yep and I was pretty good at it ;-)

My main weapon from 1983 to 1987 was the FRF1 :


 http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7104/frf1.jpg" height="373" width="600" />


 

During the Sniper school , we would fire around 3 clips a day (30 rounds) against different kind of targets , from man sized target to phone line cables (!) at different ranges . With that rifle , I hit a camping gas cartridge (the small blue ones) at 600m everytime .


 

Cheers .


 





At summer camp, I discovered riflery.  I should say, I discovered riflery!  Hooray!  I do love to shoot...anyway, as a 12 year old boy, I signed up for a riflery session every day, sometimes twice a day.  This was heavy bolt-action Savage-Anschutz .22LR, if I recall correctly, with peep sights and slings. He had one (a Mossberg?)  that took a 5-round mag, otherwise they were single-shots.
 
At one session we had three rounds each where we took prone, sitting, kneeling, etc., with one-bull or 5-bull NRA smallbore targets at 50 feet.  We each got 5 rounds per target.  So that adds up to 15 rounds a session, 15-30 rounds a day.  I'd not swear we had riflery on weekends, so say that's a mere 75-150 rounds per week.  Eight weeks, that's 600-1200 rounds a summer. I only went to that camp for four years, but in that time I fired 2400-4800 rounds of .22 pls the occasional bit of trapshooting, a couple of marksman classes with centerfire calibers. 
 
Now, I made NRA Sharpshooter 3rd Bar, and I shot a 50 once and put two bullets through the same hole a few times, but I was no sniper.  (I'd like to think I could have been, but after all I have terrible eyesight.)
 
So no, for your chosen mission in life, 5000 rounds does not sound like all that much. And I do understand that 150m is not what you would call long range, even with a 5.56mm; not for a sniper.  Big talk - I doubt I could hit a man-sized target at 150m without a scope, and have never had the chance to find out - but I'm pretty sure that the Army firing ranges, for grunts not snipers, go out to 300m.
 
 
Um, was any of that relevant?  Maybe not but I sure enjoyed those days. 
Ah to be young again? (Can I get an Amen?!? http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emangel.gif" align="absmiddle" border="0" alt="" /> http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emteeth.gif" align="absmiddle" border="0" height="19" width="19" alt="" />)

But if I had that as my J-O-B, I'd be like Tiger Woods.  I'd shoot until my trigger finger bled. If I understand all this correctly BW, I think you got shortchanged at the very least.
 
Quote    Reply



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics