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Subject: 6*F-22 vs 6*Typhoon vs 6*Rafale in the UAE?!
giblets    11/16/2009 4:48:58 AM
According to both Flight Global, and Defence News, other than attending the Dubai airshow, the USAF, RAF, and FAF each sent 6 of their finest fighter aircraft to the desert Kingdom to take part in multinational exercises. Other than adding much fuel to the fire for forum members here! It raises many questions (such as why the USAF was unable to send 1 F-22 to Paris, and can now send 6 to the UAE, despite no drop in operational tempo). And will the F22 and Typhoon not be in the air at the same time again?
 
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warpig       12/5/2009 9:44:35 PM

Secondly , you talk about your "future opponents" . Who they could be ?

I disagree , it was a third-rate C2 . 
 
"First, KARI was very hierarchical, so that when the SOCs or ADOC were destroyed, the IOCs were unable to operate effectively. Also, much of the communications, data processing, and software for the integrated air defenses (IADs) were not up to the task of successfully defeating a modern, Western air campaign.""

I don 't rate it very highly ...

""My point has been to de-bunk this false notion that the mere fact of radar frequency alone is sufficient to overcome/erase the effectiveness of LO treatments ("signals management" as gf would say)""

I 've never said so Warpig , re read what I posted .

LO aircraft are very usefull for the task but since they are the first to go in (after the cruise missiles) , they 'll better be prepared .

Let 's be honest here , the main threat for LO aircraft are not only the static arrays but the mobile ones . Obviously , not everybody owns these systems ;-)

I don 't know about China but France has such systems in numbers , like the Thalès HA-100 passive radar :


Future opponents could be any threat nation, and all threat nations primarily use the radars in question for their air surveillance network.
 
You opinion regarding KARI is noted.
 
Iraq's air defense during DESERT STORM should be judged by the standards of 1991, not 2009.  Regarding GlobalSecurity's opinion, all threat IADS at that time were very hierarchical, and none of them were up to the task of successfully defeating a modern, Western air campaign, with only the possible exception of the USSR's itself.
 
You never said so?  To quote yet again--
Bluewings:
"The F-22 is LO under the X , C and S bands only (from 2 to 8 GHz) . It is of no use to try to fool people . Any radar using more than a 0.50m wavelength will have a clear lock on anything flying , LO or not ."
 
Wrong.
 
We'd better be prepared for these mobile systems that "not everybody" owns?  But I thought the only threat we need to worry about is in the middle-east, which you doubt could counter the USAF (and which does not have any such systems)?  Incidentally, I'd be interested to read anything that shows how many HA-100 systems the French military have actually procured "in numbers."
 
 
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Hamilcar       12/6/2009 2:27:06 AM

Reactive :


""the French have found a way to do it at ranges of 100km !""

 

Yes . This technology is for ~as I said~ medium to low altitude stealth flying targets . We have other means for high altitude stealth flying targets and trust me , we are not the only one to have the capability .


 

I was talking with a friend of mine (MK2-5F pilot) not long ago about how the airbase here in Dijon could be defended in case of War .

The Dijon BA-102 airbase is where the -5Fs are based (they are the "flying Cops" in the French airspace) . Dijon is very far from any Sea and attack by cruise missiles (from Subs and Ships) are very unlikely to say the least . To be in range of the airbase , one would have to fly deep into French , Swiss , German , Italian or Belgium airspace .


First , my friend said to me that we had excellent close range protection around the base itself and that we could track anything flying within a 300km diameter circle . So , I talked about our over the horizon radar ~Nostradamus~ and other military systems , some of them (like the HA-100) using civilians means (bands and frequencies) and my friend smiled to me . If we set up 3 HA-100 radars at around 20km away from the airbase , these radars would use up to 14 FM relays around Dijon to get a picture of what is flying around the area (that is 14 targets to kill before the passive radars stop working) . Anything flying like a supersonic long range cruise missile would be detected , tracked and shot before reaching the airbase . 

During the cold war , the "Dijonnais" (people who lives there) were very affraid of a Russian nuclear strike as it was the only way to take out the airbase . I know personaly one neighbors who built a "nuclear proof" bunker in his garden (!?) .

 

Just to give some insights ...




Cheers .

 


 


 

 



First , the targets will be static targets like radar arrays , Command Centers , Radio relays , etc ...
 
No it won't  With all those mobile radars and command vans skittering all over the place, the first target is always the signal spectrum itself. You want to force an IASD light off so that you can real time plot the NODES. Its the nodes you mission or physical kill first so that you can force the IADS into point as opposed to area  defense control. Then point by point you render blind that what you need to open safe routes to achieve entry corridors for your strike missions. With the proclivity for America's enemies to put IADS assets inside civilian targets (like cities) America is not going on a blast and bomb frolic. First, it gives the enemy a propaganda victory, second it wastes scarce bombs and aircraft that could be better used  at the start, killing the local dictator and his thug regime terror apparatus, third, mission kill limits the amount of damage repair we have to do post war after the regime change. A burned out radar van in the middle  of an intact school is a lot better than CNN or al Jazeera broadcasts of 100 dead school kids and rubble. Makes the peace easier.           
 
Against someone like Syria or Iran , it would be a piece of cake if I may say but against someone like China , it is a different story .
 
China is building an IADS. It has HUGE gaps in physical and signal coverage. I speak in general terms but there are exploit corridors and electronic warfare windows that still will take decades to close. By the time they get there, like the US 19th Century defense system commissioned by Thomas Jefferson, they will find the next cycle of OFFENSIVE electronic and physical warfare renders it obsolete. Warpig can check me on this, but I think the system is patchy and only designed to cover what the PRCs regard as regime control vital to defend against decapitation by air-power in case war happens.
     
Let 's be honest here , the main threat for LO aircraft are not only the static arrays but the mobile ones . Some systems are portable (light and compact) and a 4 man Team can set t
 
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gf0012-aust       12/6/2009 2:48:28 AM
the issue is whether he understands the concept of delamination.  Going on his comments about static sites etc... then it's a long road yet.
 
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One Five Five Echo       12/6/2009 2:21:38 PM
Along with the Rafales, the French EC 1/2 "Cigognes" sent some Mirage 2000-5Fs to al-Dhafra.  One guy who posts on some internet forums took a cool picture:
 
http://escadron1.2cigognes.free.fr/photos/rencontres/hd/f22.jpg" width="1000" height="750" /> 
 
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Bluewings12       12/6/2009 4:13:25 PM
Warpig :
""You never said so?  To quote yet again--
Bluewings:
"The F-22 is LO under the X , C and S bands only (from 2 to 8 GHz) . It is of no use to try to fool people . Any radar using more than a 0.50m wavelength will have a clear lock on anything flying , LO or not ."
Wrong.""
 
No I am not wrong , I am right and you are wrong Warpig . 
I quote from Defense technology International :
 
""The HA 100 discreetly receives and processes signals transmitted by commercial FM radio stations and re&O4258;ected by aircraft, to compile an air picture to a range of more than 100 km. (62 mi.). One bene&O4257;t to the long wavelength of FM signals in use by the HA 100 is that stealth features cannot hide an aircraft or missile if it is bigger than 1 meter (3.3 ft.), says Jean-Philippe Hardange, vice president of strategy, technology and innovation for Thales. ?We just listen to the radio,? Hardange quips.""
 
Against long wavelength , stealthy shapes and RAM are useless , this is a Physic law .
 
""I'd be interested to read anything that shows how many HA-100 systems the French military have actually procured "in numbers."""
 
I am looking into it .
**********************
Hamilcar , you are talking about "targeting the signal spectrum itself" , fine .
I understand the concept and various  jamming systems onboard aircraft are designed for the task .
Let 's take again Dijon as an exemple . Just imagine that it is a similar Chinese city with an important airbase ;-)
 
How the USAF and/or the USN could blind the various systems participating at the IADS around "Dijoniang" (lol) ?
 
Since you like the "peeled onion" metaphor (various superposed skins) , we 're gonna use it .
First , there is a OtH radar to deal with . It is probably well protected by other types of radars and various types of SAMs .
In itself , it is almost invulnerable to any conventional attack . Any B-2 armed with cruise missiles will be spotted and tracked at 1000km or more .
What is left in unconventional attack , Nuclear , EMP , Laser , etc , take your pick ...
Let 's say that the country doesn 't have a ballistic missile shield and EMP is used . The OtH radar is out for days , ok ?
 
Then , one can start a "proper" air campaign (or cruise missile attack first) against the other "skins" , like UHF , VHF emiters to try to open a breach where LO assets can "try" to survive . This is going to take a lot of jamming and bombing as the targets are probably numerous where you plan to hit . Then , the L and FM bands ("skins") must also be dealt with .
There , one have a big problem as it is a close to target defense ~area defense~ (you have to go in close) and the possible sheer number of targets to jam or to destroy is problematic . 
 
If Dijoniang has 3 HA-100 passive radars using 14 FM relays inside a 300km diameter circle (over 70.000km square) , one would need multiple jamming aircraft at once . Then , a LO platform would only have to hide from the mormal military radars and could bomb with almost inpunity .
The problem is that the airbase has fighters , obviously , it 's an airbase .
 
Pfff ... What a task for the attacker . It can be done but it is not going to be a walk in the park .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Bluewings12       12/6/2009 4:38:16 PM
I am impatient to know what the FAF and the USAF have to say about what happened to al-Dhafra ...
 
It would be also interesting to know what the locals M2000-9s with the RDY-2 and ICMS III ECM suite did .
 
Cheers .
 
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jackjack       12/6/2009 4:45:38 PM
""Any radar using more than a 0.50m wavelength will have a clear lock on anything flying""
 
as the aussies are said to be world leaders in othr and its capabilities, you really dont understand why you are wrong, do you
 
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Bluewings12       12/6/2009 4:52:06 PM
Oh really JJ ? Please , enlight me .
 
Cheers .
 
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jackjack       12/6/2009 5:00:32 PM
why ? you will just repost the same nonsense next week
 
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Bluewings12       12/6/2009 5:04:38 PM
JJ , keep in mind that I know JORN ;-)
 
""Group Captain Hockings says stealth aircraft are coated with special radar absorbing material to avoid detection by conventional microwave radar. But the Jindalee radar uses high frequency radio waves, which have a much longer frequency than microwave radar. "Unless designed to be stealthy to both microwave and HF radars, (stealth) aircraft would not evade detection by JORN," he said""

Cheers .
 
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