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Subject: 6*F-22 vs 6*Typhoon vs 6*Rafale in the UAE?!
giblets    11/16/2009 4:48:58 AM
According to both Flight Global, and Defence News, other than attending the Dubai airshow, the USAF, RAF, and FAF each sent 6 of their finest fighter aircraft to the desert Kingdom to take part in multinational exercises. Other than adding much fuel to the fire for forum members here! It raises many questions (such as why the USAF was unable to send 1 F-22 to Paris, and can now send 6 to the UAE, despite no drop in operational tempo). And will the F22 and Typhoon not be in the air at the same time again?
 
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One Five Five Echo       12/1/2009 1:04:55 AM

It is rumored that there was some DACT between the Rafales and the F-22 today from Al-Dhafra. No details are known however.

 

Any source on this?  Was it pilots trash talking or something credible?


OK, found the source.  Just the fact that he's a journalist for one of those International Air Combat Forces Journal Monthly mags requires taking everything he says with a grain of salt, and will definitely result in cries of bias and who knows what else.  But yeah, it's going to make for interesting reading http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emwink.gif" align="absmiddle" border="0" alt="" />
 
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cwDeici       12/1/2009 1:39:09 PM

According to both Flight Global, and Defence News, other than attending the Dubai airshow, the USAF, RAF, and FAF each sent 6 of their finest fighter aircraft to the desert Kingdom to take part in multinational exercises.

Other than adding much fuel to the fire for forum members here! It raises many questions (such as why the USAF was unable to send 1 F-22 to Paris, and can now send 6 to the UAE, despite no drop in operational tempo). And will the F22 and Typhoon not be in the air at the same time again?

It means the Americans don't trust the French, durh.
But with ut with the Rafale being able to detect F-22s at 130 kilometers and track and kill them with MICA at 80 km, I can't imagine how they would profit from abusing the trust... I guess someone in the USAF or in the American CoC forgot to call off the war against the French, BW hasn't announced a peace-treaty yet after all.
 
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cwDeici       12/1/2009 1:49:40 PM
There are plenty of western nations at war in Afghanistand Iraq, other than America. Denmark, Norway, Canada, Holland, the UK, just to mention some of the ones who're bothered to fight properly.
 
In other related business I'm very against genocide and racism, but I can understand how someone might think or talk like they want to resort to it after talking to the abomination that is BW.
 
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Bluewings12       12/1/2009 2:03:14 PM
155E :
""OK, found the source.  Just the fact that he's a journalist for one of those International Air Combat Forces Journal Monthly mags requires taking everything he says with a grain of salt, and will definitely result in cries of bias and who knows what else.""
 
I agree . Jon Lake is so much Typhoon biased that he often bash both F-22 and Rafale .

cwDeici :
""the abomination that is BW""

This is a rather harsh affirmation Sir , we have never talked or even seen each other .
 
Cheers . 
 
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MK       12/1/2009 2:52:18 PM
I agree . Jon Lake is so much Typhoon biased that he often bash both F-22 and Rafale .

There is a difference between bashing and criticising something. While JL is certainly somewhat biased towards the Typhoon he has also criticised it and otherwise also praised the Rafale and F-22 where they deserve it. Maybe not in all areas, but if every critic is recongised as bashing then someone has to ask himself how biased he is himself. 
 
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Bluewings12       12/1/2009 4:05:27 PM
Rgr that loud and clear MK .
 
I still dislike J. Lake . No hate and I respect the man but ...
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       12/1/2009 4:48:48 PM
I don 't know if the USAF , the FAF or the UAE will leak something about what happened in between the F-22 and the Rafale . I don 't expect to read much on it , but I can be wrong .
 
To be honest , the Rafale doesn 't have much to loose because the F-22 is the aircraft to "beat" .
It sounds like (so far) that a possible WVR encounter may have taken place . If it is true , a question comes to mind : why only a WVR DACT ?
We all know what both fighters can do (more or less) in WVR . Gun fight is another story but a nice video from the F-22/Rafale pit would be interesting :-)
I remember years ago when the MN asked the USN SH for a WVR only because the Rafale F1 didn 't have the Link16 and was at huge disadvantage . Rafale won but it would have most probably lost in BVR .
If the USAF and the FAF agreed to have fun in WVR with the Raptor and the Rafale , it is probably for 1 good reason :
- It doesn 't say much besides the Pilot 's quality .
 
Now , I would like to say that in between 0 to 30km the Rafale might well get the edge :
-1) OSF TV+LRF+IR Mica = pure passive shot without RBE2/Spectra (even if the F-22 stay silent) , which means that the F-22 stealth doesn ' t matter.
-2) IR Mica is better than AIM-9M (Magic-2 already was) . AIM-9X is not used yet and is probably no better than Mica .
-3) F-22 doesn 't have the LOBL capability (IR missiles in weapon bays).
 
What I am saying is if the Rafale pilot can down the F-22 before to go dogfight , it 's good . I don 't like the TVC and the F-22 stability at very low speed , it is very dangerous for the Rafale .
 
Cheers . 
 
 
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One Five Five Echo       12/1/2009 5:17:24 PM
Now , I would like to say that in between 0 to 30km the Rafale might well get the edge :
-1) OSF TV+LRF+IR Mica = pure passive shot without RBE2/Spectra (even if the F-22 stay silent) , which means that the F-22 stealth doesn ' t matter.
 
TV/IR sensor needs something to cue it, so unless the Rafale's RWR or radar can see it that sensor will make no difference.

-2) IR Mica is better than AIM-9M (Magic-2 already was) . AIM-9X is not used yet and is probably no better than Mica .
 
Maybe kinematically but won't matter much in an exercise, scoring is based on lockon.  The F-22 still has the advantage there if the Rafale can't lock it up it cant cue its IR missiles so their FOV will be much reduced.

-3) F-22 doesn 't have the LOBL capability (IR missiles in weapon bays).
 
 F-22 most definitely does have LOBL capability, it exposes the AIM-9 to the air before firing.  In practice the way it works is, F-22 gets a radar lock, seeker head is uncaged and slaved to radar, bay door opens and missile extends out into airstream, missile acquires target, fires.
 
Bottom line is neither AC has an HMS and the F-22 has the radar advantage, which means better ability to cue IR weapons.
 
Anyway we'll see when the writeup comes out http://strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emwink.gif" align="absmiddle" border="0" alt="" />
 
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warpig       12/1/2009 5:44:05 PM

Now , I would like to say that in between 0 to 30km the Rafale might well get the edge :

-1) OSF TV+LRF+IR Mica = pure passive shot without RBE2/Spectra (even if the F-22 stay silent) , which means that the F-22 stealth doesn ' t matter.

-2) IR Mica is better than AIM-9M (Magic-2 already was) . AIM-9X is not used yet and is probably no better than Mica .

-3) F-22 doesn 't have the LOBL capability (IR missiles in weapon bays).

What I am saying is if the Rafale pilot can down the F-22 before to go dogfight , it 's good . I don 't like the TVC and the F-22 stability at very low speed , it is very dangerous for the Rafale .


Your point -1) is valid only for a fight where the Rafale pilot keeps eyes on the F-22 the whole time and the LRF is in range, as the TV is not a search sensor.  That cuts your "0 to 30km" range in half, and hope the fight is in clear weather and daylight.
 
Your point -2) is true, MICA IR is a better missile than AIM-9M.  Good thing F-22 carries AMRAAMs too.  I do hope that we do finally decide it's worth the money to bother to equip the F-22 with AIM-9X and the JHMCS or even the HMDS, just in case some F-22 pilot eventually screws up and finds himself WVR with someone.
 
Your point -3) is *STILL* wrong, and this is the thrid time in the last month or two that I've told you so.  The F-22 fires its AIM-9M in LOBL only, since the AIM-9M is not even capable of being fired LOAL.  The missile bay opens, the AIM-9M locks onto the target, the missile is fired, and the bay closes.  I think I can guess at what you might be trying to say with this point you keep getting wrong, but rather than guess at your meaning I will wait for you to acknowledge this and for you to try to restate what you mean.
 
As far as winning before getting into a dogfight, the best chance any jet (including Rafale) has of winning is precisely if it can survive long enough to actually make it into WVR range, actually physically spot the F-22, and get into a dogfight with it.  At that point, it becomes a crap shoot and much of the F-22's advantages have finally been equalized.
 
Good luck with that.
 
 
 
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MK       12/1/2009 7:06:04 PM
Maybe they haven't fought BVR as the results would have been clear or as the relevant sensors wouldn't be used anyway to deny giving away to much info to the other side.
The probability that the Rafale's IRST detects the Raptor before it is toasted is not overly high. It's still possible but the chances won't be great. Even if the APG-77's emissions would be detected by Spectra it is likely that the F-22 would have more information at hand and it is still questionable weather the jammer would work, particularly with sensor fusion in a multiship flight. The Raptor would likely launch a missile before the Rafale can get enough data to engage BVR and for sure not at best range.
Yet IRST includes the "search" for a good reason, I don't know who came to the idea that IRSTs must be cued, that is nonsense, otherwise they would be called IRT.
 
 
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