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Subject: UK Pilot flight test the Rafale F3
Bluewings12    11/9/2009 1:57:05 PM
By Peter Collins : Chapter 1 , the aircraft : "Most advanced Allied air forces now have operational fleets of fourth-generation fighters (defined by attributes such as being fly-by-wire, highly unstable, highly agile, net-centric, multi-weapon and multi-role assets). These Western types include the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen NG. The Boeing F-15E and Lockheed Martin F-16 have an older heritage, but their latest upgrades give them similar multi-role mission capabilities. Of the above group, only the Super Hornet and Rafale M are capable of aircraft-carrier operations. As these fourth-generation fighters' weapons, sensor systems and net-centric capabilities mature, the likelihood of export orders for such an operationally proven package becomes much more realistic. On behalf of Flight International, I became the first UK test pilot to evaluate the Rafale in its current F3 production standard, applicable to aircraft for both French air force and French navy frontline squadrons. The "proof-of-concept" Rafale A first flew in 1986 as an aerodynamic study, leading to the programme's formal launch two years later. The slightly smaller single-seat Rafale C01 and two-seat B01 for the French air force and single-seat M01 and M02 prototypes for the navy flew from 1991. The first production-standard Rafale flew in 1998, and entered service with the navy's 12F squadron at Landivisiau in 2004 in the F1 (air-to-air) standard. Deliveries of the air force's B- and C-model aircraft started in 2006 in the F2 standard, dubbed "omnirole" by Dassault. Since 2008, all Rafales have been delivered in the F3 standard, which adds reconnaissance pod integration and MBDA's ASMP-A nuclear weapon capability. All aircraft delivered in earlier production standards will be brought up to the F3 configuration over the next two years. The French forces plan to purchase 294 Rafales: 234 for the air force and 60 for the navy. Their Rafales are set to replace seven legacy fighter types, and will remain as France's principal combat aircraft until at least 2040. To date, about 70 Rafales have been delivered, with a current production rate of 12 a year. Rafale components and airframe sections are built at various Dassault facilities across France and assembled near Bordeaux, but maintained in design and engineering configuration "lockstep" using the virtual reality, Dassault-patented Catia database also used on the company's Falcon 7X business jet. Rafale software upgrades are scheduled to take place every two years, a complete set of new-generation sensors is set for 2012 and a full mid-life upgrade is planned for 2020 SUPERB PERFORMANCE The Rafale was always designed as an aircraft capable of any air-to-ground, reconnaissance or nuclear strike mission, but retaining superb air-to-air performance and capabilities. Air force and navy examples have made three fully operational deployments to Afghanistan since 2005, giving the French forces unparalleled combat and logistical experience. The commitments have also proved the aircraft's net-centric capabilities within the co-ordination required by coalition air forces and the command and control environment when delivering air support services to ground forces. Six Rafale Ms recently carried out a major joint exercise with the US Navy from the deck of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier the USS Theodore Roosevelt. The air force's B/C fighters have 80% commonality with the navy's Rafale M model, the main differences being the latter's navalised landing gear, arrestor hook and some fuselage longitudinal strengthening. Overall, the M is about 300kg (661lb) heavier than the B, and has 13 hardpoints, against the 14 found on air force examples. Dassault describes the Rafale as omnirole rather than multirole. This is derived from the wide variety of air-to-ground and air-to-air weapons, sensor pods and fuel tank combinations it can carry; the optimisation of aircraft materials and construction; and the full authority digital FBW controlling a highly agile (very aerodynamically unstable) platform. This also gives the aircraft a massive centre of gravity range and allows for a huge combination of different mission stores to be carried, including the asymmetric loading of heavy stores, both laterally and longitudinally. Other attributes include the wide range of smart and discrete sensors developed for the aircraft, and the way that the vast array of received information is "data fused" by a powerful central computer to reduce pilot workload when presented in the head-down, head-level and head-up displays. The Rafale is designed for day or night covert low-level penetration, and can carry a maximum of 9.5t of external ordinance, equal to the much larger F-15E. With a basic empty weight of 10.3t, an internal fuel capacity of 4.7t and a maximum take-off weight of 24.5t, the Rafale can lift 140% of additional lo
 
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jackjack       11/30/2009 3:30:40 PM

jackjack


""do you ever get the feeling that its a complete waste of time ? he still says its active cancellation""

 

No this is not what I am saying , re read what I wrote :


""I don 't want anyone to think that the Rafale is using active cancellation because it is not true as far as I know""
 
LOL you hang on to it tighter than a dog with a bone. you said.....
 Spectra is also using ~as I said before~ a "baby" kind of active cancellation . 
Whatever people might say or think , I believe it because there is already enough Doc on the open Net for one to start to thing about .
It is not hard to understand if you add 1 to 2 to get 3
 

""MBDA-France has been developing active stealth systems that attempt to cancel the radar return from an airframe by transmitting a second signal of equal frequency and amplitude to the genuine return. Unlike Ram, this technique retains is effectiveness at low and medium frequencies, where the efficiency of passive stealth technology tends to decline.

yes, mbda is experimenting active cancellation for potential use on cruise missiles
russia is also experimenting with plasma stealth
let me know when either of you get it working
 

and rafale radar warning/jamming doesnt have asea  
 



 
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MK       12/1/2009 8:07:03 AM

 MK , AESA has a lot to do with it because of its LPI capability . Using a LPI jamming has many advantages , discretion , avoidance of HoJ counter threats , etc .
Are you sure that the rear active antenna at the tail base is of the same kind that the ones on the canards ?

I said AESA has nothing to do with the 3-D database as such. The question is does the jamming work as you describe it? It sounds pretty unlikely that a jammer will fool a radar but not be noticed as if it doesn't exists. Particularly if multiple sensors are available and with sensor fusion and networking, it might be much harder to work correctly. 
I don't know what array is used for the rearward ECM antenna of the Spectra, I just know it is there.
 
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Hamilcar    We've already estab lished that you don't have the foggirst clie at all how SVM works.   12/1/2009 9:09:46 AM

jackjack


""do you ever get the feeling that its a complete waste of time ? he still says its active cancellation""

 It is.

No this is not what I am saying , re read what I wrote :


""I don 't want anyone to think that the Rafale is using active cancellation because it is not true as far as I know""

 This is not the song you used to sing when you claimed active cancellation.
 
Here are your words:
 
Bluewings    RE:How will F-35 perform in air-to-air vs. Rafale, Gripen, Typhoon?   7/12/2006 12:37:59 AM
Rafale is already superior to Lightning II , Gripen and Typhoon in AtA and AtG . Make no mistake about it . Since the full implementation of the F2 software (June 2005) and the completion and implementation of the 2nd OSF (march this year) , Rafale is the only aircraft in the World able to perform a totally passive interception , from detection to hit . It can detect ANY EMITTING target at up to 200km ~including stealth Aircratfs~, it can detect ANY NON EMITTING target at up to 130km ~including stealth Aircrafts~, track ANY target at up to 80km ~including stealth Aircratfs~ and can engage and kill totally passively and silently ANY target at up to 80km with its MICA Ir missile . The Nuclear capability ~and others gizmos~ will be added mid summer 2008 with the standard F3 . The Active Jamming system CARBONE will be implemented into the SPECTRA suite presumably the same year . The CARBONE system has recently defeated NATO grounded and Airborn radars by lobe jamming and active cancellation , hiding the Aircraft from detection . The Dassault Fighter is now capable to use its full AtG armory , and IS operational and deployed as I type , 2 squadrons on French soil , 1 onboard CdG with 2 more squadrons coming in 2007 and 2008 . By the Time Lightning II "first batch" is operational and deployed , Rafale would have flown for years , it will be F3+ Class , twice cheaper , more reliable , and most of all better in all departments . F-35/F-22 : too little , too late . And far too expensive for what they will do ... Cheers . 

It is true that France did and still do extensive research in active cancellation technology but I don 't think it is used onboard the Rafale . I don 't remember exactly when France started to work on it but we had working prototypes in 1999 .
 
If you had it, you would use it and sell it.. OCCAM'S RAZOR . Cut your own throat there.

""MBDA-France has been developing active stealth systems that attempt to cancel the radar return from an airframe by transmitting a second signal of equal frequency and amplitude to the genuine return. Unlike Ram, this technique retains no effectiveness at low and medium frequencies, where the efficiency of passive stealth technology tends to decline.
 
Quoting a sales brochure and an OLD one that was debunked years ago, are we?. That CRAP is called signal masking (WW II era ECM). See below for what "active jammimg" is,.  
 
In 1999, the company conducted ground tests using a C-22 target drone fitted with an experimental active-stealth system, and flight tests conducted using ?testbeds? (probably C-22s) were carried out at the Centre d?Essais des Landes range at Biscarosse in southwest France.
 
What those were, were self protection jammer tests.   

And it has been pointed out to you, that plane doesn't have the POWER to match the signal from either US  or Russian air search radars. It barely h
 
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cwDeici       12/1/2009 1:19:21 PM
Wow, the Rafale can detect proper high-end stealth aircraft at 130 klicks? ... I'm awed... the list just grows day by day.
 
What wonders will their finished shallow-end version of AESA bring?
 
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cwDeici       12/1/2009 1:24:03 PM
sh*t, it can track them up to 80 klicks and kill with a MICA missile?
Oh my gosh, I'm jumping with excitement here!11!!1! Please, tell us Bluewing, what is around the corner? Has the Rafale surpassed the 22 in your eyes yet?
When will Spectra detect the dark side of the moon? Because a coming cult movie has it there are nazies there, and I fear the French will only be able to defeat the coming invasion if you evolve into Space French!
 
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cwDeici       12/1/2009 1:25:41 PM

Herald , you are a biaised clown .

Try to prove the BS you 've just said . We 're waiting for a good laugh ...


 

Cheers .



Wow, there are people who're waiting with you to laugh at Herald?
May I meet these people? They must be so cunning and intelligent, sure to be leading authorities in the forefront of the aviation industry and piloting community!
 
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cwDeici       12/1/2009 1:30:18 PM

Herald , you are a biaised clown .

Try to prove the BS you 've just said . We 're waiting for a good laugh ...


 

Cheers .



Wow, there are people who're waiting with you to laugh at Herald?
May I meet these people? They must be so cunning and intelligent, sure to be leading authorities in the forefront of the aviation industry and piloting community!
 
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Hamilcar    Rge quality of the man is visible.   12/1/2009 6:47:48 PM




Herald , you are a biaised clown .



Try to prove the BS you 've just said . We 're waiting for a good laugh ...






 



Cheers .









Wow, there are people who're waiting with you to laugh at Herald?

May I meet these people? They must be so cunning and intelligent, sure to be leading authorities in the forefront of the aviation industry and piloting community!

Hamilcar has proved his case, simply by example, whereas assertion after assertion, after assertion after assertion proives that BW doesn't understand what he tries to assert.
 
For example, he doesn't know the difference between scalar detection and vector detection, he doesn't know about the soda straw FoV problem or how signal processing and signal management are flips of the same coin. 
 
Ignorance shows. It can be fixed if one is humble. The ignorant arrogant never learn and they never admit.
 
The Rafale should have sold to someone by now besides France, if it was ANY good as claimed. Gripen and Typhoon have. That is the most damning fact about the plane. It doesn't fit into modern air combat systems that are not French.  I simply explain why.
 
Missiles, radar, engines.  
 

 
 
 
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sentinel28a       12/3/2009 2:21:52 PM
Good heavens.  I know about soda straw, and I haven't a tenth of the technical knowledge of most people on this board.
 
 
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warpig    Bump   2/12/2011 11:23:47 AM
Way too much good stuff in this thread to let it disappear.  Plus, the two trolls are endlessly entertaining.
 
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