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Subject: UK Pilot flight test the Rafale F3
Bluewings12    11/9/2009 1:57:05 PM
By Peter Collins : Chapter 1 , the aircraft : "Most advanced Allied air forces now have operational fleets of fourth-generation fighters (defined by attributes such as being fly-by-wire, highly unstable, highly agile, net-centric, multi-weapon and multi-role assets). These Western types include the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen NG. The Boeing F-15E and Lockheed Martin F-16 have an older heritage, but their latest upgrades give them similar multi-role mission capabilities. Of the above group, only the Super Hornet and Rafale M are capable of aircraft-carrier operations. As these fourth-generation fighters' weapons, sensor systems and net-centric capabilities mature, the likelihood of export orders for such an operationally proven package becomes much more realistic. On behalf of Flight International, I became the first UK test pilot to evaluate the Rafale in its current F3 production standard, applicable to aircraft for both French air force and French navy frontline squadrons. The "proof-of-concept" Rafale A first flew in 1986 as an aerodynamic study, leading to the programme's formal launch two years later. The slightly smaller single-seat Rafale C01 and two-seat B01 for the French air force and single-seat M01 and M02 prototypes for the navy flew from 1991. The first production-standard Rafale flew in 1998, and entered service with the navy's 12F squadron at Landivisiau in 2004 in the F1 (air-to-air) standard. Deliveries of the air force's B- and C-model aircraft started in 2006 in the F2 standard, dubbed "omnirole" by Dassault. Since 2008, all Rafales have been delivered in the F3 standard, which adds reconnaissance pod integration and MBDA's ASMP-A nuclear weapon capability. All aircraft delivered in earlier production standards will be brought up to the F3 configuration over the next two years. The French forces plan to purchase 294 Rafales: 234 for the air force and 60 for the navy. Their Rafales are set to replace seven legacy fighter types, and will remain as France's principal combat aircraft until at least 2040. To date, about 70 Rafales have been delivered, with a current production rate of 12 a year. Rafale components and airframe sections are built at various Dassault facilities across France and assembled near Bordeaux, but maintained in design and engineering configuration "lockstep" using the virtual reality, Dassault-patented Catia database also used on the company's Falcon 7X business jet. Rafale software upgrades are scheduled to take place every two years, a complete set of new-generation sensors is set for 2012 and a full mid-life upgrade is planned for 2020 SUPERB PERFORMANCE The Rafale was always designed as an aircraft capable of any air-to-ground, reconnaissance or nuclear strike mission, but retaining superb air-to-air performance and capabilities. Air force and navy examples have made three fully operational deployments to Afghanistan since 2005, giving the French forces unparalleled combat and logistical experience. The commitments have also proved the aircraft's net-centric capabilities within the co-ordination required by coalition air forces and the command and control environment when delivering air support services to ground forces. Six Rafale Ms recently carried out a major joint exercise with the US Navy from the deck of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier the USS Theodore Roosevelt. The air force's B/C fighters have 80% commonality with the navy's Rafale M model, the main differences being the latter's navalised landing gear, arrestor hook and some fuselage longitudinal strengthening. Overall, the M is about 300kg (661lb) heavier than the B, and has 13 hardpoints, against the 14 found on air force examples. Dassault describes the Rafale as omnirole rather than multirole. This is derived from the wide variety of air-to-ground and air-to-air weapons, sensor pods and fuel tank combinations it can carry; the optimisation of aircraft materials and construction; and the full authority digital FBW controlling a highly agile (very aerodynamically unstable) platform. This also gives the aircraft a massive centre of gravity range and allows for a huge combination of different mission stores to be carried, including the asymmetric loading of heavy stores, both laterally and longitudinally. Other attributes include the wide range of smart and discrete sensors developed for the aircraft, and the way that the vast array of received information is "data fused" by a powerful central computer to reduce pilot workload when presented in the head-down, head-level and head-up displays. The Rafale is designed for day or night covert low-level penetration, and can carry a maximum of 9.5t of external ordinance, equal to the much larger F-15E. With a basic empty weight of 10.3t, an internal fuel capacity of 4.7t and a maximum take-off weight of 24.5t, the Rafale can lift 140% of additional lo
 
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jackjack       11/16/2009 5:30:07 AM

Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone
Another one bites the dust


[url]http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/11/dxb09-f-35-steals-rafale-thund.html[/url]
Today's lesson: Never count out the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

This was supposed to be a big show for the Dassault Rafale. But after the first day it's already clear the United Arab Emirates isn't any closer to signing a long-awaited contract.

Dubai 09: UAE reveals fifth-generation fighter ambitions

A top United Arab Emirates military leader aspires to obtain a fifth-generation fighter in the very near term, suggesting a potential new sales coup for the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

"I hope that within a couple years the UAE, like many other countries, will have a fifth-generation fighter," says Brig Gen Ibrahim Naser Alalawi, deputy commander of the UAE Air Force and Air Defence

 
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jackjack       11/16/2009 5:33:08 AM
 
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StevoJH       11/16/2009 5:52:28 AM
ROFLMAO.
 
Plus we have F22's, Typhoons and Rafale's all in the UAE for "exercises".
 
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One Five Five Echo       11/16/2009 6:49:32 AM
BAE/Boeing hasn't completed total US air fleet Block I Super Hornet changeover yet. Its Block II with the 214.  I also make mistakes, Its hard to keep all the numbers straight that late. That is at least 200 Block I aircraft by the way. You have 180 or so Block II with the 214s and you have some 70 or so Growlers out there as well. 
 
There is not and will not be a "changeover" of Block I to Block II.  The Block I Super Bugs will not get APG-79 as their forward fuselage is not compatible.  The Block I Fs also don't get the ACS back seat pit for similar reasons.  There is talk of maybe a different APG-79 derivative later but it's not funded.  The Block I Super Bugs do have JHMCS and a lot of the other options have been rolled in, but the potential is limited by structural differences and so by cost.
 
The IDECM fit is pretty much common across the Super Bug fleet though.  Only the first couple of deployments used ALQ-165, it was never intended as a permanent setup on any Super Bugs.
 
70 or so Growlers, not yet.
 
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One Five Five Echo       11/16/2009 6:57:19 AM
F16E include also an advanced ECM system with interferometric digital RWR and internal jammer (rather similar to Eurofighter DASS so without 3D signature management of Rafale Spectra).
 
What is "3D signature management of Rafale Spectra" ?
 
This ought to be good.
 
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french stratege       11/16/2009 4:04:23 PM
 also don 't think that the difference is very large in between Typhoon ' RCS and Rafale 's but big enough to negate the captor better range over the Pesa RBE2 . A clever guy could make a math guess , maybe ...

Franckly it is not difficult according to public data:
Captor is given for 160 km against a 3 m² target which translates using radar equation to 121,6 km to a 1 m² target
RBE2 PESA is given for a 100 km range against a 1m² target and nearly RDY-1 value
If Rafale has a (121,6/100¨)^4=2,18 time smaller RCS, it detects first.
 
 
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Bluewings12       11/16/2009 4:35:28 PM
FS :
""Franckly it is not difficult according to public data:
Captor is given for 160 km against a 3 m² target which translates using radar equation to 121,6 km to a 1 m² target
RBE2 PESA is given for a 100 km range against a 1m² target and nearly RDY-1 value
If Rafale has a (121,6/100¨)^4=2,18 time smaller RCS, it detects first.""
 
I guess that you maths are correct (I didn 't check but I trust you) . I am surprised that you used the RDY-1 values ...
Why not using the RDY-2 values ?
As far as we know , the detection and tracking range of the Rafale equipped Pesa RBE2 is similar to the M2000-5s based here in Dijon .
They use the RDY-2 , FS .
...
After a bit of thinking , if the Typhoon has a "possible" (?) RCS 2,18 time bigger than the Rafale , it doesn 't change much in AtA BVR fighting because they are not using the Meteor yet . From what we know , Typhoon and Rafale can fire at each other from head-on at about the same range (around 80km) and both Amraam and Mica are happy at that distance .
Now , the AESA RBE2 will provide up to 30-50% increase in detection/tracking range which means that Rafale will enjoy a 30 to 45km advantage over the Typhoon with its actual Captor radar and will fire its Meteors first .
Interesting ...
 
Cheers .
 
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french stratege       11/16/2009 5:07:36 PM
BW
If I remember well French M2000-5 use the RDY-1 and not the RDY-2 of -9 which has 15% better range.
Morover you have to distinguish between maximum published range and real combat range.
If you see real air combat data you will notice that AMRAAM were shoot often at 30 km range.
Indeed for a given missile, maximum range are given for optimal case of a non manoeuvering target at subsonic speed at medium altitude.
But when you fire a missile agaisnt a fighter with a good RWR, it will manoeuver with high g load just when pilot is warned of missile by its RWR (plus using decoy and ECM), and for this case efficient range of a missile is often under 40% of its maximum distance.It is the no escape zone.
Now a missile like MICA IR has an enormous advantage to be silent, as the target may not be manoeuvering since it doesn't detect the missile (which is also not properled after first kilometers).So it extends real efficient range.
BTW RF guided missiles have low probability to lock a LO target unless at very close range.So missile has to be guided almost until last km by plane radar and datalink and so differ few of a semiactive missile.
You lose benefit of fire and forget missile.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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MK       11/16/2009 6:04:20 PM

Franckly it is not difficult according to public data:

Captor is given for 160 km against a 3 m² target which translates using radar equation to 121,6 km to a 1 m² target

RBE2 PESA is given for a 100 km range against a 1m² target and nearly RDY-1 value

If Rafale has a (121,6/100¨)^4=2,18 time smaller RCS, it detects first.

Quite funny how the RCS values for aircraft and even targets are sinking and sinking. The RBE2's tracking range of 100 km was given against a 3 sqm target for MANY years. Just recently the new number of 1 sqm pops up and I have never seen any official source confirming that, just forum posts...
 
BTW tracking range of the Captor was given against a 5 sqm target and the range stated was WELL BEYOND 160 km. It's actually not really known if that statement was based on miles or nm, that's why you can see some sources stating 185 km. The original statement was made by a RAF pilot and it was not in km anyway. 
 
RDY's detection range was given with 130 km against a fighter sized target and if the RBE2 is similar it would perfectly comply with the 180 km figure for the RBE2AA I have seen, which is 40% higher as stated by Thales. It should be taken into account that this figure is a detection and not tracking range figure. 
 
Regarding the MICA IR you have to take into account that the most recent fighters are all equipped with MAWs so you can't be to sure that the missile won't be detected, certainly not by EM emissions but by its heat emissions.


 
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french stratege       11/16/2009 6:38:04 PM
Quite funny how the RCS values for aircraft and even targets are sinking and sinking. The RBE2's tracking range of 100 km was given against a 3 sqm target for MANY years. Just recently the new number of 1 sqm pops up and I have never seen any official source confirming that, just forum posts..."
No this value was mentionned almost 4 years ago on this forum (including by me).
Anglo Saxons use BTW the ten square feet value (i.e 3m²) for target data, French use metric.
 
BTW tracking range of the Captor was given against a 5 sqm target and the range stated was WELL BEYOND 160 km. It's actually not really known if that statement was based on miles or nm, that's why you can see some sources stating 185 km.
160 km agaisnt a 3 m² target is equivalent to 185 km against a 5 m²
Do the math using radar equation.
 
RDY's detection range was given with 130 km against a fighter sized target
A fighter sized target is normally a 10 square feet target so 100 km for RDY against a 1m² target translate almost exactly to a 130 km range on 3 m². Again do the math.
 
 and if the RBE2 is similar it would perfectly comply with the 180 km figure for the RBE2AA I have seen, which is 40% higher as stated by Thales. It should be taken into account that this figure is a detection and not tracking range figure. 
If RBE2 PESA has a 100 km range against a 1 m² target, a REBE2 AESA with a 40% better range will have a 140 km range against a 1 m² target, or a 184 km against a 3 m² target or a 210 km range against a 5 m² target.
 
Regarding the MICA IR you have to take into account that the most recent fighters are all equipped with MAWs so you can't be to sure that the missile won't be detected, certainly not by EM emissions but by its heat emissions.
A AtoA missile is properled only during few seconds so a Mica IR may fly 50 km after propulsion phase and this distance excess current generation of MAWs.Morover at this distance you do not know if you are the target.
 
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