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Subject: UK Pilot flight test the Rafale F3
Bluewings12    11/9/2009 1:57:05 PM
By Peter Collins : Chapter 1 , the aircraft : "Most advanced Allied air forces now have operational fleets of fourth-generation fighters (defined by attributes such as being fly-by-wire, highly unstable, highly agile, net-centric, multi-weapon and multi-role assets). These Western types include the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen NG. The Boeing F-15E and Lockheed Martin F-16 have an older heritage, but their latest upgrades give them similar multi-role mission capabilities. Of the above group, only the Super Hornet and Rafale M are capable of aircraft-carrier operations. As these fourth-generation fighters' weapons, sensor systems and net-centric capabilities mature, the likelihood of export orders for such an operationally proven package becomes much more realistic. On behalf of Flight International, I became the first UK test pilot to evaluate the Rafale in its current F3 production standard, applicable to aircraft for both French air force and French navy frontline squadrons. The "proof-of-concept" Rafale A first flew in 1986 as an aerodynamic study, leading to the programme's formal launch two years later. The slightly smaller single-seat Rafale C01 and two-seat B01 for the French air force and single-seat M01 and M02 prototypes for the navy flew from 1991. The first production-standard Rafale flew in 1998, and entered service with the navy's 12F squadron at Landivisiau in 2004 in the F1 (air-to-air) standard. Deliveries of the air force's B- and C-model aircraft started in 2006 in the F2 standard, dubbed "omnirole" by Dassault. Since 2008, all Rafales have been delivered in the F3 standard, which adds reconnaissance pod integration and MBDA's ASMP-A nuclear weapon capability. All aircraft delivered in earlier production standards will be brought up to the F3 configuration over the next two years. The French forces plan to purchase 294 Rafales: 234 for the air force and 60 for the navy. Their Rafales are set to replace seven legacy fighter types, and will remain as France's principal combat aircraft until at least 2040. To date, about 70 Rafales have been delivered, with a current production rate of 12 a year. Rafale components and airframe sections are built at various Dassault facilities across France and assembled near Bordeaux, but maintained in design and engineering configuration "lockstep" using the virtual reality, Dassault-patented Catia database also used on the company's Falcon 7X business jet. Rafale software upgrades are scheduled to take place every two years, a complete set of new-generation sensors is set for 2012 and a full mid-life upgrade is planned for 2020 SUPERB PERFORMANCE The Rafale was always designed as an aircraft capable of any air-to-ground, reconnaissance or nuclear strike mission, but retaining superb air-to-air performance and capabilities. Air force and navy examples have made three fully operational deployments to Afghanistan since 2005, giving the French forces unparalleled combat and logistical experience. The commitments have also proved the aircraft's net-centric capabilities within the co-ordination required by coalition air forces and the command and control environment when delivering air support services to ground forces. Six Rafale Ms recently carried out a major joint exercise with the US Navy from the deck of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier the USS Theodore Roosevelt. The air force's B/C fighters have 80% commonality with the navy's Rafale M model, the main differences being the latter's navalised landing gear, arrestor hook and some fuselage longitudinal strengthening. Overall, the M is about 300kg (661lb) heavier than the B, and has 13 hardpoints, against the 14 found on air force examples. Dassault describes the Rafale as omnirole rather than multirole. This is derived from the wide variety of air-to-ground and air-to-air weapons, sensor pods and fuel tank combinations it can carry; the optimisation of aircraft materials and construction; and the full authority digital FBW controlling a highly agile (very aerodynamically unstable) platform. This also gives the aircraft a massive centre of gravity range and allows for a huge combination of different mission stores to be carried, including the asymmetric loading of heavy stores, both laterally and longitudinally. Other attributes include the wide range of smart and discrete sensors developed for the aircraft, and the way that the vast array of received information is "data fused" by a powerful central computer to reduce pilot workload when presented in the head-down, head-level and head-up displays. The Rafale is designed for day or night covert low-level penetration, and can carry a maximum of 9.5t of external ordinance, equal to the much larger F-15E. With a basic empty weight of 10.3t, an internal fuel capacity of 4.7t and a maximum take-off weight of 24.5t, the Rafale can lift 140% of additional lo
 
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french stratege       11/15/2009 8:53:16 PM

And oh......
Had the U.S. not sold F-16s to the UAE they would have most certainly purchased the French Rafale.
The better plane WON. 
It is obvious that F16E which were delivered in 2004 was in some respect (like AESA, IRST) more advanced on electronic and more mature that France could have offered in 2004 or even 2006 and cheaper.
F16E include also an advanced ECM system with interferometric digital RWR and internal jammer (rather similar to Eurofighter DASS so without 3D signature management of Rafale Spectra).
UAE paid the 3 billion R&D bill.
A press report stated that this is "the first time the US has sold a better aircraft[F-16] overseas than its own forces fly".[
Now since Rafale F3 + AESA is here, obviously UAE are ready to buy it and do not condider F16E anymore.

 
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french stratege       11/15/2009 8:57:24 PM
The F16E sold to UAE is even more advanced than F18E (IRST, RWR, ECM).
BTW the F16 proposed to India is a derivative.
 
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Hamilcar    Don't make me laugh.   11/15/2009 9:12:05 PM




And oh......


Had the U.S. not sold F-16s to the UAE they would have most certainly purchased the French Rafale.

The better plane WON. 


It is obvious that F16E which were delivered in 2004 was in some respect (like AESA, IRST) more advanced on electronic and more mature that France could have offered in 2004 or even 2006 and cheaper.

F16E include also an advanced ECM system with interferometric digital RWR and internal jammer (rather similar to Eurofighter DASS so without 3D signature management of Rafale Spectra).

UAE paid the 3 billion R&D bill.

A press report stated that this is "the first time the US has sold a better aircraft[F-16] overseas than its own forces fly".[


Now since Rafale F3 + AESA is here, obviously UAE are ready to buy it and do not condider F16E anymore.




The RBE2-AESA versus RANGR or SABR? Yeah, tell me another funny story..
 
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Hamilcar    One more thing.....   11/15/2009 9:19:48 PM
The AN/APG-79 is superior to the AN/APG-80.
 
This thread is hilarious. 
 
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french stratege       11/15/2009 9:49:08 PM
The AN/APG-79 is superior to the AN/APG-80.

In range because of larger diameter.
But F18E have inferior system to the F16E for the rest (no IRST, no interferometric RWR, no embedded jamming antenna but only a towed decoy).
 
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Hamilcar       11/16/2009 2:29:59 AM
In electronics, as well, its superior (that is the computer, which means better target signal processing and more telemetry throughput and outgo (that means it can guide many more weapons in a single pass to many more different targets surface and AIR targets than a Falcon or, a Rafale). The rest of your noise is your camouflage to hide some rather foolish radar mistakes.

As it is, since the Super Hornet  and Falcon Block 60  compete many of the same exact class EW systems (Raytheon versus Northrop), uhmmmmm, just who do you think you kid?  
 
By the way;
 
IDECM includes the AN/ALR 67 series, the AN/ALQ 165, the AN/AAR 147 and it carries a targeting pod that WORKS, the AS/ASQ 228. An Emirates driver or a Rafale pilot wishes he had gear that good.  
 
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Hamilcar    About interferometry.   11/16/2009 2:31:58 AM
I also suggested that you don't use terms you do not understand.  The Americans DO have the clocks.
 
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MK       11/16/2009 4:09:21 AM

IDECM includes the AN/ALR 67 series, the AN/ALQ 165, the AN/AAR 147 and it carries a targeting pod that WORKS, the AS/ASQ 228. An Emirates driver or a Rafale pilot wishes he had gear that good.  

The ALQ-165 has been replaced by the ALQ-214. And what is the AAR-147? The MAWS for the F/A-18 is designated AAR-57 and its dispensers are ALE-47.
 
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MK       11/16/2009 4:37:31 AM
I wouldn 't say "rumors , I would say corridor talk which is different . We 've been talking about at Air-Defense .

Well I don't know the source of origin and through how many instances it went before arriving in the public. So for me it's still very much a rumor, maybe based on something true. But we don't know any further details at all.
 
I also don 't think that the difference is very large in between Typhoon ' RCS and Rafale 's but big enough to negate the captor better range over the Pesa RBE2 . A clever guy could make a math guess , maybe ...

I think we'll have to wait for further info. There is an ongoing exercise in the UAE involving F-22s, Rafales and Typhoons right now.
 
MK , as you see it , if the DASS was an AESA active system , do you think that the Eurofighter would need towed EM decoys ?

A TRD remains desireable as an internal jammers is directly on the aircraft AESA or not. Offboard jamming can be quite useful and effective particularly against monopulse radars. According BAES the TRD can be twice as effective as the internal jammer.
 
Regarding your second question , very few know how many threat emitters Spectra can jam simultaneously . Myself , I don 't know .
 
To be honest I haven't expected that you would know it and I infact believe the number isn't necessarily fixed but mainly depends on how much resources are required to jam specific threat emitters.Against a single threat emitter an AESA system isn't necessarily more effective. Btw while the Rafale is the only operational fighter I can think of with an AESA jammer, it's not the only system of the kind in the world. RAC MiG for example chose Elettronica's ELT-568V2 for its MiG-35 which is another airborne AESA jammer.

 
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Hamilcar    Brainfart and a typo   11/16/2009 5:04:28 AM



IDECM includes the AN/ALR 67 series, the AN/ALQ 165, the AN/AAR 147 and it carries a targeting pod that WORKS, the AS/ASQ 228. An Emirates driver or a Rafale pilot wishes he had gear that good.  





The ALQ-165 has been replaced by the ALQ-214. And what is the AAR-147? The MAWS for the F/A-18 is designated AAR-57 and its dispensers are ALE-47.


BAE/Boeing hasn't completed total US air fleet Block I Super Hornet changeover yet. Its Block II with the 214.  I also make mistakes, Its hard to keep all the numbers straight that late. That is at least 200 Block I aircraft by the way. You have 180 or so Block II with the 214s and you have some 70 or so Growlers out there as well.  
 
Sheesh.
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
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