Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: UK Pilot flight test the Rafale F3
Bluewings12    11/9/2009 1:57:05 PM
By Peter Collins : Chapter 1 , the aircraft : "Most advanced Allied air forces now have operational fleets of fourth-generation fighters (defined by attributes such as being fly-by-wire, highly unstable, highly agile, net-centric, multi-weapon and multi-role assets). These Western types include the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen NG. The Boeing F-15E and Lockheed Martin F-16 have an older heritage, but their latest upgrades give them similar multi-role mission capabilities. Of the above group, only the Super Hornet and Rafale M are capable of aircraft-carrier operations. As these fourth-generation fighters' weapons, sensor systems and net-centric capabilities mature, the likelihood of export orders for such an operationally proven package becomes much more realistic. On behalf of Flight International, I became the first UK test pilot to evaluate the Rafale in its current F3 production standard, applicable to aircraft for both French air force and French navy frontline squadrons. The "proof-of-concept" Rafale A first flew in 1986 as an aerodynamic study, leading to the programme's formal launch two years later. The slightly smaller single-seat Rafale C01 and two-seat B01 for the French air force and single-seat M01 and M02 prototypes for the navy flew from 1991. The first production-standard Rafale flew in 1998, and entered service with the navy's 12F squadron at Landivisiau in 2004 in the F1 (air-to-air) standard. Deliveries of the air force's B- and C-model aircraft started in 2006 in the F2 standard, dubbed "omnirole" by Dassault. Since 2008, all Rafales have been delivered in the F3 standard, which adds reconnaissance pod integration and MBDA's ASMP-A nuclear weapon capability. All aircraft delivered in earlier production standards will be brought up to the F3 configuration over the next two years. The French forces plan to purchase 294 Rafales: 234 for the air force and 60 for the navy. Their Rafales are set to replace seven legacy fighter types, and will remain as France's principal combat aircraft until at least 2040. To date, about 70 Rafales have been delivered, with a current production rate of 12 a year. Rafale components and airframe sections are built at various Dassault facilities across France and assembled near Bordeaux, but maintained in design and engineering configuration "lockstep" using the virtual reality, Dassault-patented Catia database also used on the company's Falcon 7X business jet. Rafale software upgrades are scheduled to take place every two years, a complete set of new-generation sensors is set for 2012 and a full mid-life upgrade is planned for 2020 SUPERB PERFORMANCE The Rafale was always designed as an aircraft capable of any air-to-ground, reconnaissance or nuclear strike mission, but retaining superb air-to-air performance and capabilities. Air force and navy examples have made three fully operational deployments to Afghanistan since 2005, giving the French forces unparalleled combat and logistical experience. The commitments have also proved the aircraft's net-centric capabilities within the co-ordination required by coalition air forces and the command and control environment when delivering air support services to ground forces. Six Rafale Ms recently carried out a major joint exercise with the US Navy from the deck of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier the USS Theodore Roosevelt. The air force's B/C fighters have 80% commonality with the navy's Rafale M model, the main differences being the latter's navalised landing gear, arrestor hook and some fuselage longitudinal strengthening. Overall, the M is about 300kg (661lb) heavier than the B, and has 13 hardpoints, against the 14 found on air force examples. Dassault describes the Rafale as omnirole rather than multirole. This is derived from the wide variety of air-to-ground and air-to-air weapons, sensor pods and fuel tank combinations it can carry; the optimisation of aircraft materials and construction; and the full authority digital FBW controlling a highly agile (very aerodynamically unstable) platform. This also gives the aircraft a massive centre of gravity range and allows for a huge combination of different mission stores to be carried, including the asymmetric loading of heavy stores, both laterally and longitudinally. Other attributes include the wide range of smart and discrete sensors developed for the aircraft, and the way that the vast array of received information is "data fused" by a powerful central computer to reduce pilot workload when presented in the head-down, head-level and head-up displays. The Rafale is designed for day or night covert low-level penetration, and can carry a maximum of 9.5t of external ordinance, equal to the much larger F-15E. With a basic empty weight of 10.3t, an internal fuel capacity of 4.7t and a maximum take-off weight of 24.5t, the Rafale can lift 140% of additional lo
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34   NEXT
Hamilcar       11/15/2009 6:28:54 PM





Since the SDECE "Service 7" , everything France ever did , sold , recorded , participated in , shared with or against was put into files and kept for ELINT purposes . You can trust me on that ;-)



We are still doing it ...

 








 

Well, I agree to the extent (like I said) that I'm sure the FAF gets the data it needs to be effective... but there's no way the DGSE pulls in everything NSA/GCHQ/DSD/CSE does--and that's what they'd need to do in order to be "second to none."

 

"You can trust me on that."

 

French threat libraries, unless they have flown or floated their own recent ferrets, are incomplete, out of date, and do not have US, UK, Israeli or even Australian target set electronic footprint data to use in their countermeasures.  

Note the enormous gaps. As someone here already said, showing up to fight without a good threat library means you eat Gauntlets and Adders to acquire one.
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

warpig       11/15/2009 6:32:49 PM

Warpig , while the NSA is a huge and very experimented and expensive Company , the French Foreign Intelligence is more aware of the Russian and middle-east latest technology . You can also trust me on that ;-)

You can also ask France about any Nuclear program around the World , we know .


*******************

Here is a late picture of a Rafale F3 training before to go to A-Stan . Load is 6 AASMs , 4 Micas (not needed over A-Stan) , two 2.000l external fuel tanks (8.7 tons of fuel in total) :


 

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/1731/rafalef3.jpg" width="640" /> 

 

Nothing new , just a nice picture .

 

Cheers .




 
 
I agree that France has good access, historically and currently, to much of the threats found in the middle-east.  However, you are not better informed than me on this issue.  I realize this is yet another head-to-wall banging moment, and it is pointless to continue as I'm not allowed to even try to properly convince you and you could never be convinced by anything I say anyway, thus I will try my hardest to not bother responding again on this subject and try to let it go with an extremely emphatic "you are certainly wrong on this."  Now feel free to say it's I who am wrong if you want to, but no one should interpret my silence (if I can keep it) as being a concession of this point.
 
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       11/15/2009 6:33:59 PM
As usual , Herald is nit-picking on small details with his biased attitude .
There is nothing I can do about , unfortunatly ...
 
The Dassault diagram shows what can be mounted on the Rafale as long as the customer has the code .
I 've never said otherwise , I repeat . If the customer hasn 't , he can buy the french equivalent , the stuff that we use .
I can 't see any problem there , it is the same with everybody . Our stuff is NATO standard in every means .
Sorry Herald , you lost yourself again .
 
I also know why the Meteor is delayed . Thalès is working on it and the end result will be outstanding .
 
Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       11/15/2009 6:36:46 PM
Warpig , I copy loud and clear . No need to fight on this matter ...
 
Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

sentinel28a       11/15/2009 6:51:12 PM
Sentinel , the F-35 program is a trap set-up by the USA to kill the European fighter industry and to make sure that America will definatly sink people like Dassault or Saab in the fighter market . It doesn 't seem to work as good as planned ...
Without the F-35 , Europe would have ordered Rafale in mass . The USA knew it as early as 1983-86 .
This is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have ever read on the FBR forum, BW.  I'm sure that was going through Lockheed Martin and Boeing's minds when they were designing the X-32 and X-35: "OMG, the European fighter market is going to be so awesome! We've got to stop them before they start producing stuff!"
 
Never mind the fact that all the present Euro designs--the Typhoon, Gripen, and Rafale--started being designed and ordered in the late 1980s, long before the JSF was even planned. 
 
Never mind the fact that Europe could've started ordering Rafales en masse in the late 1990s, with the JSF still over a decade away--but they didn't because the Typhoon was a better interceptor replacement for the F-4, and the Gripen was cheaper. 
 
Never mind the fact that apparently US fighter designers are psychic and knew in 1983 that the French would produce the Rafale, despite the fact that it wasn't even a back of a napkin design yet. 
 
Never mind the fact that the JSF's stated purpose was as a F-16 replacement, not as a competitor to anything in Europe, except to replace NATO's huge numbers of F-16s.
 
Never mind the fact that apparently BW and FS have switched positions in the past 48 hours.  This sort of ridiculous conspiracy theory is about par for the course.  Let me be perfectly clear, BW: we here in the US do not really give a rat's ass what France designs and flies.  Or for that matter, about France. 
 
Never mind facts; BW's mind is made up.  The Rafale is so friggin' awesome because IT IS FRENCH! That's all you need to know. 
 
Now just nod and agree with BW, so he will call you nice things and acknowledge what a great person you are.  Do not speak the heresy that the Rafale might not be as good as the French Fanboy Corps wants it to be.
 
Quote    Reply

warpig       11/15/2009 7:26:56 PM
Never mind the fact that apparently BW and FS have switched positions in the past 48 hours.  This sort of ridiculous conspiracy theory is about par for the course.  Let me be perfectly clear, BW: we here in the US do not really give a rat's ass what France designs and flies.  Or for that matter, about France. 

 
If I understand what you mean, I'd suggest to you that they have not switched anything.  One of the longest-running jokes on SP has been FS' and BW's recurring allegations of American government/corporate collusion to do whatever it takes to exclude Rafale from making any sales.
 
Quote    Reply

french stratege       11/15/2009 7:53:09 PM


Never mind the fact that apparently BW and FS have switched positions in the past 48 hours.  This sort of ridiculous conspiracy theory is about par for the course.  Let me be perfectly clear, BW: we here in the US do not really give a rat's ass what France designs and flies.  Or for that matter, about France. 

If I understand what you mean, I'd suggest to you that they have not switched anything.  One of the longest-running jokes on SP has been FS' and BW's recurring allegations of American government/corporate collusion to do whatever it takes to exclude Rafale from making any sales.
It is a fact that US governement want to get a quasi monopoly of advanced fighters sold to prowestern governement and Rafale breach US attempt of controlling supply of advanced weapons (while US have some control on Eurofighter and Gripen in case).
https://research.maxwell.af.mil/papers/ay2000/saas/molloy.pdf
Page 7 we read
The UAE sale also highlights some of the negative aspects of exporting air technology. In order to compete with countries such as Russia and France—who export their top-of-the-line fighters—the U.S. must offer something better. Had the U.S. not sold F-16s to the UAE they would have most certainly purchased the French Rafale. Therefore, there are advantages to high-tech sales that displace competition such as the Rafale—an aircraft whose capabilities are not fully known—and replace it with a system whose capabilities and limitations are known and quantifiable.

British Air Vice Marshal Tony Mason in his book, Air Power: A Centennial

Appraisal, also comments on these dynamics and the British fear of U.S. domination of the armaments market. He states that the fear is ?well founded? and goes on to describe a letter to the U.S. State Department from a senior executive with McDonnell Douglas at the time of the negotiations in 1992 regarding an F-15 sale to Saudi Arabia. According to Mason, the writer of this letter expressed concern lest Saudi Arabia should buy EFA (EF2000) instead of the F-15 because, ?the Saudis would be able to configure their EFAs to their own specification, and the capabilities of those aircraft could be significantly enhance in the future without U.S. knowledge, consent or control.? On the other hand, the McDonnell Douglas executive muses how, the sale of the F-15 to Saudi Arabia would significantly impair the ability of Europe?s aircraft industry to develop a next generation fighter that would be sold freely in the Middle East. As a result, this scenario would greatly improve U.S. control over military aircraft operated by other countries and ultimately enhance U.S. competitiveness in the European defense market . . . The serious weakening or even elimination of the foreign competition helps the U.S. to retain its lead in a strategically vital industry, and perhaps more significantly could empower the U.S. to act unilaterally in the future to effectively control the supply of arms to other nations.10
 

 It seems that some US officers are not so naive.

 
Quote    Reply

Hamilcar    Hearsay.   11/15/2009 8:06:47 PM






Never mind the fact that apparently BW and FS have switched positions in the past 48 hours.  This sort of ridiculous conspiracy theory is about par for the course.  Let me be perfectly clear, BW: we here in the US do not really give a rat's ass what France designs and flies.  Or for that matter, about France. 




If I understand what you mean, I'd suggest to you that they have not switched anything.  One of the longest-running jokes on SP has been FS' and BW's recurring allegations of American government/corporate collusion to do whatever it takes to exclude Rafale from making any sales.



It is a fact that US governement want to get a quasi monopoly of advanced fighters sold to prowestern governement and Rafale breach US attempt of controlling supply of advanced weapons (while US have some control on Eurofighter and Gripen in case).

https://research.maxwell.af.mil/papers/ay2000/saas/molloy.pdf

Page 7 we read


The UAE sale also highlights some of the negative aspects of exporting air technology. In order to compete with countries such as Russia and France—who export their top-of-the-line fighters—the U.S. must offer something better. Had the U.S. not sold F-16s to the UAE they would have most certainly purchased the French Rafale. Therefore, there are advantages to high-tech sales that displace competition such as the Rafale—an aircraft whose capabilities are not fully known—and replace it with a system whose capabilities and limitations are known and quantifiable.


British Air Vice Marshal Tony Mason in his book, Air Power: A Centennial


Appraisal, also comments on these dynamics and the British fear of U.S. domination of the armaments market. He states that the fear is ?well founded? and goes on to describe a letter to the U.S. State Department from a senior executive with McDonnell Douglas at the time of the negotiations in 1992 regarding an F-15 sale to Saudi Arabia. According to Mason, the writer of this letter expressed concern lest Saudi Arabia should buy EFA (EF2000) instead of the F-15 because, ?the Saudis would be able to configure their EFAs to their own specification, and the capabilities of those aircraft could be significantly enhance in the future without U.S. knowledge, consent or control.? On the other hand, the McDonnell Douglas executive muses how, the sale of the F-15 to Saudi Arabia would significantly impair the ability of Europe?s aircraft industry to develop a next generation fighter that would be sold freely in the Middle East. As a result, this scenario would greatly improve U.S. control over military aircraft operated by other countries and ultimately enhance U.S. competitiveness in the European defense market . . . The serious weakening or even elimination of the foreign competition helps the U.S. to retain its lead in a strategically vital industry, and perhaps more significantly could empower the U.S. to act unilaterally in the future to effectively control the supply of arms to other nations.10
 



 It seems that some US officers are not so naive.



It seems that any sour grapes will do as proof for people, but EVIDENCE demands names and sources.
 
And the sour grapes express has so many aboard, doesn't it?. 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Hamilcar    Hearsay.   11/15/2009 8:08:51 PM
And oh......
 
Had the U.S. not sold F-16s to the UAE they would have most certainly purchased the French Rafale.

The better plane WON. 
 
Quote    Reply

Hamilcar    French sdtiff is not NATO standard.    11/15/2009 8:12:14 PM

As usual , Herald is nit-picking on small details with his biased attitude .

There is nothing I can do about , unfortunatly ...


 

The Dassault diagram shows what can be mounted on the Rafale as long as the customer has the code .

I 've never said otherwise , I repeat . If the customer hasn 't , he can buy the french equivalent , the stuff that we use .


I can 't see any problem there , it is the same with everybody . Our stuff is NATO standard in every means .

Sorry Herald , you lost yourself again .


 

I also know why the Meteor is delayed . Thalès is working on it and the end result will be outstanding .


 

Cheers .


Otherwise you could use Harpoon and AMRAAM as you needed.
 
 QED.
 
Quit making stuff up, please.
 
 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34   NEXT



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics