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Subject: UK Pilot flight test the Rafale F3
Bluewings12    11/9/2009 1:57:05 PM
By Peter Collins : Chapter 1 , the aircraft : "Most advanced Allied air forces now have operational fleets of fourth-generation fighters (defined by attributes such as being fly-by-wire, highly unstable, highly agile, net-centric, multi-weapon and multi-role assets). These Western types include the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen NG. The Boeing F-15E and Lockheed Martin F-16 have an older heritage, but their latest upgrades give them similar multi-role mission capabilities. Of the above group, only the Super Hornet and Rafale M are capable of aircraft-carrier operations. As these fourth-generation fighters' weapons, sensor systems and net-centric capabilities mature, the likelihood of export orders for such an operationally proven package becomes much more realistic. On behalf of Flight International, I became the first UK test pilot to evaluate the Rafale in its current F3 production standard, applicable to aircraft for both French air force and French navy frontline squadrons. The "proof-of-concept" Rafale A first flew in 1986 as an aerodynamic study, leading to the programme's formal launch two years later. The slightly smaller single-seat Rafale C01 and two-seat B01 for the French air force and single-seat M01 and M02 prototypes for the navy flew from 1991. The first production-standard Rafale flew in 1998, and entered service with the navy's 12F squadron at Landivisiau in 2004 in the F1 (air-to-air) standard. Deliveries of the air force's B- and C-model aircraft started in 2006 in the F2 standard, dubbed "omnirole" by Dassault. Since 2008, all Rafales have been delivered in the F3 standard, which adds reconnaissance pod integration and MBDA's ASMP-A nuclear weapon capability. All aircraft delivered in earlier production standards will be brought up to the F3 configuration over the next two years. The French forces plan to purchase 294 Rafales: 234 for the air force and 60 for the navy. Their Rafales are set to replace seven legacy fighter types, and will remain as France's principal combat aircraft until at least 2040. To date, about 70 Rafales have been delivered, with a current production rate of 12 a year. Rafale components and airframe sections are built at various Dassault facilities across France and assembled near Bordeaux, but maintained in design and engineering configuration "lockstep" using the virtual reality, Dassault-patented Catia database also used on the company's Falcon 7X business jet. Rafale software upgrades are scheduled to take place every two years, a complete set of new-generation sensors is set for 2012 and a full mid-life upgrade is planned for 2020 SUPERB PERFORMANCE The Rafale was always designed as an aircraft capable of any air-to-ground, reconnaissance or nuclear strike mission, but retaining superb air-to-air performance and capabilities. Air force and navy examples have made three fully operational deployments to Afghanistan since 2005, giving the French forces unparalleled combat and logistical experience. The commitments have also proved the aircraft's net-centric capabilities within the co-ordination required by coalition air forces and the command and control environment when delivering air support services to ground forces. Six Rafale Ms recently carried out a major joint exercise with the US Navy from the deck of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier the USS Theodore Roosevelt. The air force's B/C fighters have 80% commonality with the navy's Rafale M model, the main differences being the latter's navalised landing gear, arrestor hook and some fuselage longitudinal strengthening. Overall, the M is about 300kg (661lb) heavier than the B, and has 13 hardpoints, against the 14 found on air force examples. Dassault describes the Rafale as omnirole rather than multirole. This is derived from the wide variety of air-to-ground and air-to-air weapons, sensor pods and fuel tank combinations it can carry; the optimisation of aircraft materials and construction; and the full authority digital FBW controlling a highly agile (very aerodynamically unstable) platform. This also gives the aircraft a massive centre of gravity range and allows for a huge combination of different mission stores to be carried, including the asymmetric loading of heavy stores, both laterally and longitudinally. Other attributes include the wide range of smart and discrete sensors developed for the aircraft, and the way that the vast array of received information is "data fused" by a powerful central computer to reduce pilot workload when presented in the head-down, head-level and head-up displays. The Rafale is designed for day or night covert low-level penetration, and can carry a maximum of 9.5t of external ordinance, equal to the much larger F-15E. With a basic empty weight of 10.3t, an internal fuel capacity of 4.7t and a maximum take-off weight of 24.5t, the Rafale can lift 140% of additional lo
 
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french stratege       11/11/2009 4:39:13 PM
Gf012
I did not speak about Cdg? A confusion?
 
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gf0012-aust       11/11/2009 4:49:52 PM

Gf012

I did not speak about Cdg? A confusion?

ack
 
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jackjack       11/11/2009 4:51:56 PM

of HOW things work is not opinion.

 

If you cannot follow it, just say so, and I will dumb it down even further. 


 
 
it really isnt that hard, its basically the Thales self defense system off the tiger helicopter
 
even Thales thinks its so good that its marketed as suited to c-130?s and choppers
dassault had nothing so they bolted the chopper kit on
 

http://events.thalesgroup.com/parisairshow2009/aerospace/ThalesMilitaireUK.pdf

Electronic warfare systems:

SPECTRA for the Rafale. It offers self-protection solutions for the C-130 retrofits and helicopters based on multispectral passive detection and active Missile Approach Warner (MAW).

 
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jackjack       11/11/2009 4:57:47 PM
dam link didnt work, i'll do it both ways 
http://events.thalesgroup.com/parisairshow2009/aerospace/ThalesMilitaireUK.pdf

thtp://events.thalesgroup.com/parisairshow2009/aerospace/ThalesMilitaireUK.pdf

 
 
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Bluewings12       11/11/2009 5:07:11 PM
Lynstyne :
""Going off topic - that is the 1st time ive seen a picture of a tanker smaller than the receiver.  was it apublicity stunt / demo or was it practised on a regular basis""
 
What is important is the fuel you need at that precise moment in time . Getting 2.5 tons of fuel is a good thing , whatever the "tanker size" is .
This kind of refuelling (SEM/Tomcat) was not a "regular" thing but it happened few times . The USN and the MN have been working together for a bloody long time and we share more things that people tend to think .
 
Cheers .

 
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Hamilcar    That was Karovy?    11/11/2009 5:08:37 PM






Gf012



I did not speak about Cdg? A confusion?






ack

Shrug. Different man. All I was saying is that three in theater was the known limit. You really don't see aircraft carriers mounting standing patrols more than 700+ nautical miles from Afghanistan, if you can put land-based French air from Dushanbe which is where the actual French Air Force missions sortied., 
 
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MK       11/11/2009 5:24:50 PM
Mk
Only B1 B (and likely B2) or Growler have directional PESA or AESA jammers

BTW you need a interferometric RWR to 3D locate threats.

And obviously only Dassault has designed simultaneously the airframe and the jammer to have such 3D integration level.

Of course USA could do the same (or UK) for new program.The only problem is that they did not do it.

(F18E has a towed ominidirectional jammer and no interferometric RWR suit)

In short. Complete nonsense. EW is actually a very sensitive field and not every manufacturer/operator releases all details. Some information can still be gather and just because you aren't aware doesn't mean it don't exists. Typhoon's jammer for example is an directional jammer as well based on phased array antennas. Directional jamming is not possible without adequate elevation and azimuth bearing data and that of modern systems is certainly much better than your acknowledged 15°. 
 
Gripen NG or updated Gripen will have such capability, not today Gripen
Probably F22, F35 have similar features but not F18E now.
 
 
Already the EWS39 of the current JAS 39C/D records the EW data and therefore gives a certain ELINT/SIGINT capability. Don't know about the Super Hornet, but its RWR is certainly much more accurate being of the same vintage as the Spectra's RWR.
 
Yes.
But it is in public datasheets of programs.F18E has a conventional numeric RWR (so a 15° accuracy order) and an ominidirectional jammer.Eurofighter has a interferometric RWR but not directional integrated jamming.
Until now only Rafale has used this concept at birth and it makes the difference.
Spectra was an enormous investment in program price.
 
Plain wrong Eurofighter's DASS HAS directional jamming. Even the TRD is no simple repeater as were earlier TRDs. 
Read post 13 on this http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51352 and learn a bit more.
 
MK, if you don't understand what makes the difference, you don't understand at all Rafale concept.
Without that, Rafale F3+ would be at F18E level (with better dynamic performance still).
 
That's the ever same and lame excuse "you don't know about the Rafale". The truth is some of you guys get overly excited and while reading up a lot about the Rafale and possibly other french aircraft, you don't know even a fraction about other aircraft types. So before start complaining tell us something new about the Rafale and not what we already know and start to inform yourself about other types before you spread your uninformed nonsense. The french are only cooking with water as well.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Kovy       11/11/2009 5:41:32 PM


Shrug. Different man. All I was saying is that three in theater was the known limit. You really don't see aircraft carriers mounting standing patrols more than 700+ nautical miles from Afghanistan, if you can put land-based French air from Dushanbe which is where the actual French Air Force missions sortied., 

The south of Afghanistan is less than 400 nm away from the costs of Pakistan where the aircraft carriers operate. fighters that operate from carriers refuel over Pakistan (KC-10, KC-135) before rejoining their partrol zone
As a comparaison, Duchambe is 250 nm away from Kaboul and about 500 nm away from the south of Afghanistan.
 
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sentinel28a       11/11/2009 5:50:28 PM

Lynstyne :


""Going off topic - that is the 1st time ive seen a picture of a tanker smaller than the receiver.  was it apublicity stunt / demo or was it practised on a regular basis""

 

What is important is the fuel you need at that precise moment in time . Getting 2.5 tons of fuel is a good thing , whatever the "tanker size" is .

This kind of refuelling (SEM/Tomcat) was not a "regular" thing but it happened few times . The USN and the MN have been working together for a bloody long time and we share more things that people tend to think .


 

Cheers .







Off topic, but Combat Aircraft Monthly has a good pic of a VFA-87 F-18A refuelling over Afghanistan from a French C-135FR.  No friction on the operating level.
I'm going to guess that pic of the Su refuelling the Tomcat is a decade or so old--the Etendard is still in the old scheme.  But yeah, my dad, who served on USN carriers in the '60s, remembers bouncing Alizes and F-8s from the old Foch. (And Sea Vixens, Bucs, and Gannets from the Victorious...those were the days...)
 
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french stratege       11/11/2009 5:54:39 PM
MK
You lost your time but I will not lost mine to answer you.
Everything is in my former post for years.
On the Typhoon DASS, if all Typhoon have the interferometric geolocation like Rafale, only the Italian version has a frontal cross eye jamming directional capability added after design and not 3D integrated.It is not 360° 3D active signature management.
RAF Typhoon have a omnidirectional towed jammer.
If you would understand basic of ECM you would not have written this post.
There is some documentation available on company or DoD sites and when you understand technology behind, it is clear.
 
The first problem is not to understand Rafale, is to understand basics of military technology.
Then you would understand Rafale protection concept which is unique for a fighter until know (US had choosen passive stealth for F35 and F22).
Rafale has been designed at birth around jamming and LO.
If I provide documents you don't read while I have given the best internet open information (and I know where to search and what are the key words to use since I have the knowledge), I can not do better for you.
 
 
 
 
 
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