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Subject: Best All-Around Fighter of World War II
sentinel28a    10/13/2009 3:38:03 PM
Let's try a non-controversial topic, shall we? (Heh heh.) I'll submit the P-51 for consideration. BW and FS, if you come on here and say that the Rafale was the best fighter of WWII, I am going to fly over to France and personally beat you senseless with Obama's ego. (However, feel free to talk about the D.520.)
 
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45-Shooter       5/23/2011 11:53:59 AM

Yes, lets imagine that level of effect on a heavily built engine when it failed to tear the longerons right next to the point of detonation! WOW! 17 grams of HE three inches from a longeron made from aluminum sheet only 0.76 MM thick and all it can do is POP THE RIVETS at the next joint! Are you kidding me? The wind at 186 MPH tore the sheet metal from the frame which was otherwise UNDAMAGED!

PS. I suspect that it was a 30 MM mine shell because the 20 MM version just does not display that much effect TYPICALLY! Read the entire sentence this time.

 
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45-Shooter       5/23/2011 12:10:28 PM









>>






Then read this, if you prefer. It tells us how 20mm and 30 MM cal fire blew half the flight deck off a B-17G. I figure it might have been the 20mm's that did the damage, don't you?I would point out that the word "caliber" is a generic term that is dimensionless with out the units appended to it. If you go back to the original source, you find it was 30 MM shells that did most of the damage. BUT, that is not important to my argument. What is, and can be found at the site in your link, IS THAT NO CREW MEMBER WAS INJURED buy all that damage! Seems HE shell is much less effective than you claim? Note that the list of injuries listed on the other web site with all the very neat pictures are also ALL minor in nature! 









What bullsh1t, calibre refers specifically to to rifle calibre ammunition. As for crew injuries, the article doesn't even talk about that. What's more, you contradict your previous assertions that 20mm HE was effective with a couple of hits when it hit head on - because it would kill the crew.




In artillery, caliber or calibre[nb 1] is the diameter of a barrel, or by extension a relative measure of the length. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber_(artillery)

Note that the word caliber is DIMENSIONLESS by itself and requires a type of unit to be appended to the number to mean anything! Does 14 caliber mean a 14"( the " symbol denoting the units in this case!) or .14" a micro-caliber varmint round? The fraise 14 by itself is meaningless with out further context!

 
 
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RedParadize       5/23/2011 4:06:36 PM
Your statement that 20mm fragment had little to no energy is a nonsense. why? because of conservation of energy.
 
Quote from 45-Shooter 5/17/2011 12:13:45 AM:
"In the first case (hispano) the shell body broke up into 10-12 large fragments and in the second (mine shell), hundreds of smaller bits."
 
10-12 fragment you say? Ok lets say 10.
 
If a 130g 20mm hisp split in 10 fragment it most likely make fragment of 11.9g(minus the explosive) on average right? So each splinter have about 3808 joules of kinetic energy at muzzle velocity without the propulsive power of the explosive of the shell itself.
 
Do you think that something that have about the same kinetic energy of a 7.62x51 NATO bullets cannot penetrate a "old style beer can" and damage vital part afterward? What about 10 of them? think about it, they will spread in a cone shaped patern after the explosion, how likely they will hit something vital?
 
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Quote form  45-Shooter 5/22/2011 1:02:03 PM (I saved you the text size and color)

"RedP: I don't know where you got your blast area of effect for the 20mm but they are wrong,
45-Shooter: Google the 5.56 x 20 MM combo gun that fired a air bursting munitions over the heads of enemy infantry. Watch the many videos of those explosions and the lack of effect knowing that each of those shells is more than twice as powerful as the 20 MM Hisso shell. Watching that will quickly rid you of these silly notions of destructive power!
RedP: Modern grenade don't pack much more energy than a 20mm HE round,
45-Shooter:Boy did you miss this one! The 20 MM Hisso has between 2.6 and 6.5 grams of HE in it depending on the type and whether it has a tracer element or not. The M-26, an arch typical and THE most widely used hand grenade has 156 grams of HE in side! Since when does 2.6 grams equal 156? RIGHT"
 
 
Note that in my previous post when i compare a grenade to the 20mm round i didn't mention the 20mm hispano nor the 20mm grenade. But lets stick on the hispano for now, what is the initial velocity of a 20mm grenade vs a 20mm hispano? Sure for a air burst it doesn't really mater, but we are not talking about air burst here. Compare the velocity of a grenade splinter of your choice (thats what you would have do anyway) to the 20mm hispano Splinter (don't forget conservation of energy!). I am sure the later have more kinetic energy.
 
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RedParadize       5/23/2011 4:19:13 PM
Note that in my previous post i avoided to talk about the destructive power of the explosive itself, I did that on purpose cause i don't know how the 37kjoules* would translate into damage. But i am sure its considerable.
 
*if 6.5g of PETN
 
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Ispose    Gunsights   5/23/2011 4:34:18 PM
The .50 was perfectly adequate for fighte aircraft...ins sheer weight of lead sent downrange the 6x .50's was about the same as 1x20mm / 30mm and 2x15mm. With US fighters much better gunsights you we much more likely to get hits and with 6 or 8 .50's thats a lot of bullets tearing into an aircraft.
They don't need to be explosive rounds with a .50....the AP round was perfectly capable of punching through backseat armor, engine blocks and metal spars...more than enough to kill the pilot, destroy the engine, or cause fatal structural damage.
M2's had the advantage of having large ammo trays...longer firing time.
For Example the P-47
8x .50's with 500 rnds @ (remembering from old data but should be close) = 4000 rnds and about 40 seconds of firing time
BF-109 - 1 20mm or 30mm with about 120 rnds and 2 x 15mm's with about 400....way undergunned.
Combined with the fact that US Aircraft on average were much more resistant to damage...draw your own conclusions.
As to the poster that said the FW-190 was the best  fighter of WW2...sorry....They were in the same sorry position of the DR-1's of WW1...can't outrun, outdive, or outlast any of your opponents puts you in a bad tactical position...you cannot disengage unless the enemy lets you. They had the edge in 1941-42 but after that no way. I will say that they are the best looking aircraft of WW2...they just look deadly.
 
 
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RedParadize       5/23/2011 5:01:06 PM
Like what i said in many of my previous post, hit probability is most likely better with .50 when piloted by average pilot. But experienced pilot wont need long salvo to hit target.
 
I would you rater fly a FW-190 when going agaist a heavy bomber formation. Requirement is the thing here I believe.
 
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gf0012-aust       5/23/2011 5:19:37 PM

Do you think that something that have about the same kinetic energy of a 7.62x51 NATO bullets cannot penetrate a "old style beer can" and damage vital part afterward? What about 10 of them? think about it, they will spread in a cone shaped patern after the explosion, how likely they will hit something vital?

shooters claim is nonsense, we ran tests on thin skins with various calibre weapons when testing recoil management systems.  tests were done on calibres ranging from .22LR to 40mm and included AP, HE and in the larger calibres various sabot types..
 
HE basically turned thin skins into collanders, AP has to hit something vital or structural to have an effect, if it hits something structural then you're banking on extant stresses to assist in that platforms degradation - hopefully rapid catastrophic.
 
we conducted tests on various thins including cars, trucks, military thins and aircraft hulks
 
its far easier to trigger a mobility kill using HE than AP on a thin. (ie a kill where the platform is compromised in functionality to such a degree that its taken out of the effective fight or inoperable as a fighting unit)
 
with an AP you need to get the placement and energy on mass so its contingent on rate of fire and a tight CEP within the target area to do the job.
 
again, think of hitting a sheet of alloy with a podger, and then hitting it with a mallet that has short nails on its head installed at crazy angles, the tearing and sheer brutality of various bits of metals at different angles striking the alloy will catastrophically compromise its integrity, place that skin under load and it will start to collpase pretty quickly (we used to stress test with gauges to see how long it could last under subsequent load)
 
both AP and HE will do the job under various conditions, but the formers effect on a thin skin to achieve the same structural distress requires a higher rate of fire - or it has to hit something significant.
 
one of the reasons why there was a shift from 20mm to 30mm (aden or defa) was that the latter imparted much much more destructive energy, exponentially greater than 20mm.
 
I've seen the after effects of the 36 barrel metalstorm weapon on a thin, and a subsequent test using 20mm HE.  in both tests that thins occcupants would have died pretty quickly, the surface area of effect was in sq metres at a preset range.  for an AP to have the same effect you'd have to directly kill the occupants so the placement of shot was far more critical.
 
the notion that shooter has that 20mm HE was not effective is just nonsense.  both the sth africans and czechs ran similar tests using 20mm anti-personnel/anti materiel dismounts and came to the same conclusions.  in these cases using a qualified marksman and AP against a thin renders better results because its a targetted shot - ie they aim for the engine block, and then the driver.  in aircraft on aircraft, the parameters of kinetic engagement are far different
 
I did get to see some very early 50cal sabots which were basically darts, but against large moving targets, not that useful.
 
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RedParadize       5/23/2011 5:49:19 PM
thanks gf0012-aust
 
I have a quick question and I feel that you are the one that can answer it.
 
On the picture on the top of page 16.  Is it right to say that overpressure and maybe shock wave did most of the damage?
 
I came to this conclusion because skin have been blowed off well away from the apparent impact and that damage curved the structure in a regular ark, that would suggest that force not was applied localy.
 
 
 

 
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45-Shooter    RedParadize   5/23/2011 11:41:15 PM

Your statement that 20mm fragment had little to no energy is a nonsense. I never said that, ever! why? because of conservation of energy. 
Quote from 45-Shooter 5/17/2011 12:13:45 AM:
"In the first case (hispano) the shell body broke up into 10-12 large fragments and in the second (mine shell), hundreds of smaller bits."
10-12 fragment you say?
 
Ok lets say 10.
If a 130g 20mm hisp split in 10 fragment it most likely make fragment of 11.9g(minus the explosive) on average right? NO! there are more than 10-12 total splinters! There are generally one huge one, 9-11 medium sized and a couple of hundred or so dust particles! The dust weighs 60-70 grams in total and can not damage anything! The base of the shell weighs 20-30 grams and the explosive pushes it backwards subtractin the energy or the explosive from the KE of the shell's forward velocity! The base is typically found laying at the bottom of the target barrel! The medium sized franments weigh between 1/2 and ONE gram! The 9-11 "Medium" sized frags are going on AVERAGE 900M/S and have 200-400J of energy each! Because of their LOW sectional dencity and odd shape, they have very little power to perforate anything substantial! TOO BAD, WHA WHA WHA! So each splinter have about 3808 joules of kinetic energy at muzzle velocity without the propulsive power of the explosive of the shell itself.
Do you think that something that have about the same kinetic energy of a 7.62x51 NATO bullets cannot penetrate a "old style beer can" and damage vital part afterward? What about 10 of them? think about it, they will spread in a cone shaped patern after the explosion, how likely they will hit something vital?
Note that in my previous post when i compare a grenade to the 20mm round i didn't mention the 20mm hispano nor the 20mm grenade. But lets stick on the hispano for now, what is the initial velocity of a 20mm grenade vs a 20mm hispano? Sure for a air burst it doesn't really mater, but we are not talking about air burst here. Compare the velocity of a grenade splinter of your choice (thats what you would have do anyway) to the 20mm hispano Splinter (don't forget conservation of energy!). I am sure the later have more kinetic energy.

Wrong-o AGAIN! Because the HE to body ratio of the 20MM Hisso is so low, (As low as 2.6 grams of HE Vs the ~110 grams of shell body, or 6.5/105 as the best case!), the fragments rairly have more velocity than the shell it self! About 7-900 M/S!

On the other hand the 20 MM "Grenade" ( Actally a shell!) and the coined body which causes uniform fragment size and the very large charge to body ratio, the average fragment velocity is 1,200-1,300 M/S and an energy of the ~120 frags of 0.125 grams each is about 80J each!



 
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45-Shooter       5/23/2011 11:59:26 PM

Note that in my previous post i avoided to talk about the destructive power of the explosive itself, I did that on purpose cause i don't know how the 37kjoules* would translate into damage. But i am sure its considerable.
*if 6.5g of PETN

First off, the weight of the HE charge varies between 2.6 and 6.5 grams! Secondly, most of the explosives energy is used up tearing the steel shell body into fragments! Almost none of it damages the target! That is why when you look at the holes made by the 20 MM Hisso, they are small, about the size of an American FOOT BALL! 8-10" by 4-6" with half a dozen fragment holes within 18" of the point of detonation!

What the explosive does do is give you a HUGE effect on fuel tanks that void the self sealing liner and ignite the fuel inside more than half the time it hits the tank directly. When they ran tests to discover this effect, they added aluminum to the HE to make the HEI loading to maximize the incendiary effect of the ammo! The Germans and Japs were so impressed with the incendiary effects that they made straight incendiary shells, WO ANY EXPLOSIVE IN THEM AT ALL!!! WHA-WHA-WHA!!! Modern ammo always includes Zirconium to maximize that effect!

I recommend that you buy or get on inter library loan "Tactical missile war heads" edited by Joseph Carleone! IF you send me a money order for $200 bucks, I'll loan you my copy and send the money back when you return the book!


 
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