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Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-) The F-22 h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I The Rafale : h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow . Cheers .
 
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Herald12345    Reply to BW..   7/31/2009 5:54:57 PM

Very good Herald , thank you :-)

 

Cheers .



I try to educate the ignorant when I find them. The stupid are beyond my ability to teach of course. The class set the taught wind up in depends on the choice the taught make.
 
Too often they make the wrong choice. They refuse to learn. 
 
By the way the rivet dimples (plainly seen) are radar returns; a coat of "plastic" doesn't help.
 
Herald
 
 
Herald
 

 
 
Herald
 
 
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Rufus       7/31/2009 5:55:29 PM
"I am not a physicist but interferometry is a way (a technique) to analyse (diagnostic) radio (or optical) waves patterns , this allows the origine of the radio (or optical) signal to beknown . Regarding the electronic warfare suites and for the technique to work , extremely sensitive sensors are needed as well as optical and electronical devices and also a good computing power . Better the suite is , better the precision will be ."
 
LMAO!!!
 
 
 
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Herald12345    Reply to BW..   7/31/2009 5:57:45 PM

You explained the details Herald but what I said (and what you said) is correct , we 're on the same track .

 

Cheers .


No we are not. What you said was gibberish that meant nothing. What I described was process, poster, and WHY that process is actually useless to us for combat range determination.

Herald
 
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Rufus       7/31/2009 6:02:12 PM
"Herald , if some rivets are worrying you , just don 't . They are under the RAM coating :"
 
lol
 
That is paint bluewings... big difference. 
 
The "RAM coating" is what is making the "saw toothed" appearance.  You can see that it is just glued on to the edge of the wing. (you can see the rivets below clearly)
 
 
Have any of you actually been near a stealth aircraft?  Let me give you a hint, you won't see a ton of exposed rivets, gaps between panels and other irregularities.  These are all absolute no-nos, and more evidence that the Rafale's RCS reduction is extremely minimal.
 
 
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MK       7/31/2009 6:05:57 PM
I am not a physicist but interferometry is a way (a technique) to analyse (diagnostic) radio (or optical) waves patterns , this allows the origine of the radio (or optical) signal to beknown . Regarding the electronic warfare suites and for the technique to work , extremely sensitive sensors are needed as well as optical and electronical devices and also a good computing power . Better the suite is , better the precision will be .
 
Interferometry is a technique used to measure the angle of arrival of the emissions, in this case radar. Hence it gives the bearing to the emitter, nothing special at all as RWRs are capable of doing so since decades, albeit the DBEM is quite accurate at that.

Basicaly , a good ECM suite will be able to precisely locate the position in 2D of the emitter . The signal is also analysed and memorised for further purposes . Then , the ECM suite can try to precisely jam the emitter if the Fighter is equipped with some kind of active AESA antennas without alarming anyone else around .
 
Many advanced ECM systems use phased arrays and are capable of doing exactly that, while AESA offers advantages here over PESA designs especially when it comes to deal with multiple threats.





""Yes, the Rafale is a very capable 4.5th gen fighter. Yes, it is one of the best platforms out there in its class.""

 

At last ... But then , you go :


""Any hypothetical combat scenarios where Rafales engaging on even terms with Typhoons, Super Hornets, Gripens, SU-30MKI/35 would most likely result in a 1:1 exchange ratio""

Both statements doesn't contradict each other. Being one of the best doesn't exclude that other types, which belong to the best as well won't achieve a 1:1 ratio.

The Typhoon has a big disadvantage with its mecanical Captor against a 4 aircraft CAP and splitting . It can only see 2 out of the 4 aircraft and can 't keep a "track while scan" on multiple targets . The Gripen is a very small and very well equipped little bast*rd ! It is harder to deal with BVR than the Typhoon . I know that some people will call "BS" but the Gripen has something no other 4.5 generation Fighters has , I let you find out what it is ;-)

If you refer to the 4 aircraft splitting in altitude some flying very low and the others higher it might indeed be a problem for a MSA system, but you usually don't fly alone and Captor is capable of tracking 20+ targets and engaging 6 simultaneously (including McG)  within full azimuth coverage unlike most, if not all other MSA systems.
 
Regarding the Rafale and since the F2 , the aircraft has demonstrated its A2A capabilities in various Joint Excercises like RedFlag , TigerMeet and also in every evaluation it took part :
"""In dogfight exercises, the Rafale outflies F-15, F-16 and F-18 opponents, and in technical and performance evaluations, we have systematically won against the F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon." Col. F.Moussez (CEAM).""

 I wasn't of the impression that the EC 1/7 participated in A2A engagements during Red Flag.

In Europe , the Rafale is seen as the best 4.5 generation A2A and A2G multirole operational aircraft .

Haven't seen any sources outside France to claim that, albeit I'm aware of non french people who think that, but most would bet on the Eurofighter when it comes to A2A. I personally won't make a definite statement on that as there are many unknown variables.

The Typhoon might (?) see combat next year over A-Stan and the Gripen has no combat or joint excercise experience whatsoever . In this regard , the Rafale enjoys a 8 years experience and combat lead (it can also land on a Carrier) .

Bering carrier capable doesn't mean anything to the aircraft's overall performance and capabilit
 
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Bluewings12       7/31/2009 6:06:23 PM
Pfff ... You people are stubborn . Even when we are on the same track , you want me to be wrong .
Please think about the others , they might get tired of your silly attitude , I mean it .
 
We are all talking the same language here regarding the "interferometry" . I explained roughly what it was and how it could be used , then Herald gave us some more details on the subject and for no reasons started to dislike what I 've said (?) .
Then Rufus came like a mad dog , barking at everything with absolute no knowledge on what was going on (?) .
How should I respond to such evident hate ? Simple , I keep my calm and keep posting relevant stuff .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/31/2009 6:11:38 PM
MK :
""The Gripen has participated in a number of joint exercises, including Red Flag Alaska.""
 
I did not know . Any link please ? :-)
 
Cheers .

 
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Herald12345    Go back to ground school.   7/31/2009 6:24:42 PM


I am not a physicist but interferometry is a way (a technique) to analyse (diagnostic) radio (or optical) waves patterns , this allows the origine of the radio (or optical) signal to beknown . Regarding the electronic warfare suites and for the technique to work , extremely sensitive sensors are needed as well as optical and electronical devices and also a good computing power . Better the suite is , better the precision will be .

 

Interferometry is a technique used to measure the angle of arrival of the emissions, in this case radar. Hence it gives the bearing to the emitter, nothing special at all as RWRs are capable of doing so since decades, albeit the DBEM is quite accurate at that.




Basicaly , a good ECM suite will be able to precisely locate the position in 2D of the emitter . The signal is also analysed and memorised for further purposes . Then , the ECM suite can try to precisely jam the emitter if the Fighter is equipped with some kind of active AESA antennas without alarming anyone else around .

 

Many advanced ECM systems use phased arrays and are capable of doing exactly that, while AESA offers advantages here over PESA designs especially when it comes to deal with multiple threats.


















""Yes, the Rafale is a very capable 4.5th gen fighter. Yes, it is one of the best platforms out there in its class.""



 



At last ... But then , you go :






""Any hypothetical combat scenarios where Rafales engaging on even terms with Typhoons, Super Hornets, Gripens, SU-30MKI/35 would most likely result in a 1:1 exchange ratio""


Both statements doesn't contradict each other. Being one of the best doesn't exclude that other types, which belong to the best as well won't achieve a 1:1 ratio.




The Typhoon has a big disadvantage with its mecanical Captor against a 4 aircraft CAP and splitting . It can only see 2 out of the 4 aircraft and can 't keep a "track while scan" on multiple targets . The Gripen is a very small and very well equipped little bast*rd ! It is harder to deal with BVR than the Typhoon . I know that some people will call "BS" but the Gripen has something no other 4.5 generation Fighters has , I let you find out what it is ;-)



If you refer to the 4 aircraft splitting in altitude some flying very low and the others higher it might indeed be a problem for a MSA system, but you usually don't fly alone and Captor is capable of tracking 20+ targets and engaging 6 simultaneously (including McG)  within full azimuth coverage unlike most, if not all other MSA systems.


 


Regarding the Rafale and since the F2 , the aircraft has demonstrated its A2A capabilities in various Joint Excercises like RedFlag , TigerMeet and also in every evaluation it took part :


"""In dogfight exercises, the Rafale outflies F-15, F-16 and F-18 opponents, and in technical and performance evaluations, we have systematically won against the F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon." Col. F.Moussez (CEAM).""




 I wasn't of the impression that the EC 1/7 participated in A2A engagements during Red Flag.




In Europe , the Rafale is seen as the best 4.5 generation A2A and A2G multirole operational aircraft .


Haven't seen any sources outside France to claim that, albeit I'm aware of non french people who think that, but most would bet on the
 
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MK       7/31/2009 6:31:15 PM
The DAS is revolutionary as a threat awareness system.since it uses an electro-optical sensor web to give true 360 degree threat bearing information to a pilot so that all he has to do is look at it instead of fumble for the presentation through a HUD .  
I agree on the DAS, but DAS is not the entire avionics suite and not representive for every single system. The EOTS for example is a Sniper XR based system, the F-135 a redesigned F-119 etc. What I want to say with that is that not all of the systems onboard the F-35 are entirely new and that given the time it will take until the aircraft goes operational with all of that stuff, you might see quite compareable systems onboard existing designs.
And BTW I'm well aware about those public stuff. The point is it was claimed "it is = fact" while it's raw speculation nothing else. I don't say it won't, but also don't say it will if you know/understand what I mean.

Opeval for F-35 is 3 years away. The French will not have their F-3 Rafale before we have our Sparkies IOC the way things are going. In fact 2014 deploy is 5 years away.  

Rafale F3 are already operational. And when it comes to the F-35 I yet wait to see the aircraft officially declared IOC ready. The experience with other recent programmes and the ongoing delays within the F-35 programme

Wingman is uninformed. If you want to support Sampaix, then by all means do so. The YF-23........

 I think you missed the point here.
 
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Herald12345    Go back to ground school.   7/31/2009 6:32:04 PM

Pfff ... You people are stubborn . Even when we are on the same track , you want me to be wrong .


Please think about the others , they might get tired of your silly attitude , I mean it .

 

We are all talking the same language here regarding the "interferometry" . I explained roughly what it was and how it could be used , then Herald gave us some more details on the subject and for no reasons started to dislike what I 've said (?) .


Then Rufus came like a mad dog , barking at everything with absolute no knowledge on what was going on (?) .

How should I respond to such evident hate ? Simple , I keep my calm and keep posting relevant stuff .


 

Cheers .

Lie: if you knew what you were discussing you would have explained HOW IT WORKS-especially the clock requirement. Gibberish is gibberish and you spit it.out in gobs.

Example; if you had any brains, and you knew the class size of an object, you could measure its size against a known size object near it at a range you know and then get a rough range estimate based on size comparison ratios between the two objects. Try to figure that one out when you use LIGHT as the yardstick.  
 
 
 
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