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Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-) The F-22 h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I The Rafale : h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow . Cheers .
 
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Herald12345    Se the rennel runs and that tail transmitter? THAT   7/22/2009 5:21:14 PM
is where the antennas (plural) are.
 
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gf0012-aust       7/22/2009 6:37:15 PM
sigh.  a bit more blah blah.  I'd like to see a comparative thermal shot of this early dorsal Rafale against a ventral later model.

the hot spots are still going to converge in either loc anyway.....  the only way that it wouldn't would be if the vents were pre-chilled, the tunnels were chilled, the materials were changed etc.....

dorsal or ventral you still have a heat exchange problem.

but then again, what would I know ..... 

 
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FJV    I would not be comfortable to put it that way.   7/23/2009 4:38:22 PM
"Traveling waves create challenges on the shop floor and in future maintenance, too. As one Lockheed F-117 engineer put it, ?we couldn?t allow even the tiniest imperfection in the fit of the landing gear door, for example, that could triple the airplane?s RCS if it wasn?t precisely flush with the body.? Any protrusions, such as small fairings, grills, domes, and wingtips, can project radar waves back to the sender. Even rivets and fasteners can act as radar reflectors."
 
Just thinking about what might happen when only the wavelength changes in the same scenario makes me think that it is not as simple as that.
 
It just might be that you want to eliminate any protrusions, because the effects of these are so complex that you cannot (easily) predict what will happen.
 
By making the plane smooth you keep things as predictable as possible so you know what will happen. Eliminating uncertainties in the design as much as possible.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       7/23/2009 7:11:33 PM
It just might be that you want to eliminate any protrusions, because the effects of these are so complex that you cannot (easily) predict what will happen.

 
you get a disruption in the returning signal, an anomaly triggers an alert.  if you expect "X" and see "Y" then the electronic hair on you neck will go up.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 



 
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gf0012-aust       7/23/2009 7:14:56 PM
By making the plane smooth you keep things as predictable as possible so you know what will happen. Eliminating uncertainties in the design as much as possible.


The issue is making the aircraft "emissions/signature" smooth

eg, there is no direct correlation between architecturally being smooth and signature integrity management.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



 
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Basilisk Station       7/23/2009 9:51:59 PM
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1893/gbu12.jpg" width="640" height="417" /> 

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1588/gbu24.jpg" width="640" height="425" /> 

What kind of lunatic ever thought something like this was going to be "discrete" to radar?

Oh, that's right. Never mind. 

Did anyone ever point out that the Rafale's display was professionally filmed and thus probably shot for marketing purposes, while the F-22 video was of a practice flight? 


 
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Rufus       7/24/2009 2:09:41 AM
"What kind of lunatic ever thought something like this was going to be "discrete" to radar?"
 
That refueling probe alone probably has a bigger RCS than an F-35... and that says nothing about the rest of the plane and its weapons.
 

 
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Reactive       7/24/2009 11:47:55 AM
Word.
 
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Herald12345    Among the many mistakes......    7/24/2009 12:49:36 PM
that the Dassault engineers made when they designed the Squall in the 1970s was to design it as a low level penetration aircraft. They reasoned that the most important aspect to mask against Russian look down radars was the TOP/FRONT and this was how and where they designed their RCS masking strategies; including the chines covering the jet engine intakes, considering that curvature of the Earth and high speed was sufficient defense against low altitude Russian IADS systems otherwise. WRONG solution. The Russian look down radars turned out to be far better than the 1%ers ever dreamed. Also it turned out that Russian point defense and local defense SAMs (and GUNS) with their IRSTS and optical trackers were far better than the French engineers ever envisioned, too.

Hence the USAF tactical exploit of the altitude coverage gap between guns and missiles and the ALL ASPECT, ALL SPECTRUM  emphasis on aeroshell signal management.
 
Herald
 
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Bluewings12       7/24/2009 1:17:05 PM
It 's getting tiring Herald .
 
""This liaison aircraft missile is carried by small antennas in the rear of the missile. Extremely protected against electronic jamming , it is almost undetectable .""
h*tp://frenchnavy.free.fr/weapons/mica/mica_fr.htm
 
""The missile receives its information through a small antenna on the rear of the missile.""
h*tp://jepenseakoi.skyrock.com/

Then , if the link was bad or the antennas badly placed , how would the VL Mica be so good ? And the Aster ?
The VL (Vertical Launched) Mica really shows that the hardware is working as expected , because it can be fired anywhere on a 360deg bubble . The receiver has to be well placed to receive the mid-link updates every 500 milliseconds , don 't you think ?
 
h*tp://www.army-technology.com/projects/vlmica/
 
Stop bashing the Mica , it is an excellent design .
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Basilisk :
""What kind of lunatic ever thought something like this was going to be "discrete" to radar?""
 
It is better to have some "discrete" features on the airframe and pylons than nothing . Nobody ever said that the Rafale was "Discrete" in every configuration , not even me . But there is something I can tell you , in these two possible configurations , the Rafale still have a RCS 3 times lower than a M2000B or D (10 times less when loaded A2A) .
To put things straight , use a SU-27 , a Mig-35 , a F-16 Blk42 , a Strike Eagle or a SH with the same load and the Rafale will still have the lowest RCS . Then , there is the Spectra suite to protect the Fighter .
 
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/2/detection.jpg" width="603" height="368" /> 
 
Rufus :
""That refueling probe alone probably has a bigger RCS than an F-35""
 
That refueling probe is RAM coated .
 
""and that says nothing about the rest of the plane and its weapons.""
 
When in Deep Strike configuration , most things under the wings are RAM coated or low RCS , exemple :
 
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8489/02124.jpg" width="640" height="427" /> 
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
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