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Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-) The F-22 h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I The Rafale : h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow . Cheers .
 
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Blue Apple       7/15/2009 4:38:27 AM
As to the the antanna location on the  MICA? Who cares about that?

Those who are tired of the lies you spread. It appears you are as mistaken about the MICA data link antenna location as you were about the MICA IR cooler (and that's a though level to reach).
 
For your information, MICA has a rear-facing antenna located in the tail of the missile one the side opposed to the umbilical, just like the AMRAAM (minus the draggy fairing).
 

And here's another that sets out principles for a form of predict lead.
Congratulation, you've just discovered augmented proportional navigation...
 
Now could you
1) use the correct term in the future?
2) learn about augmented pronav and see what happens if you have even a small error in the target acceleration evaluation (hint: error becomes greater than vanilla pronav with a >30% overestimate)?
 
I've already said that radar missiles can use APN but that's only a refinement of the basic loop system that tackles second order terms. The basic strategy remains the same in both cases.
 
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Herald12345       7/15/2009 5:27:14 AM




I didn't intend to come back here, but for BW :


Bluewings :




The pylon has been opened for Meteor as well .



 

No. Not yet. It's going to happen only if UAE signs the contract. 


 



Herald :

what does that say about the engineers who designed that missile again?

 That you're [...] inventing stories to discredit the know-how of a whole nation and make you look a well informed guy. Incindentaly, it makes you bash French tech each time i take the time to read your messages (quite suspicious if you ask me).


 Nope. I gave you chapter and verse. with exact evidence.

Who, last time, told me that Dassault were liars ?

 I did and I even told you the lies about the RBE2, Spectra, and the other promises made in 19982 not fulled to date and here it is 2009.  
 
Who should answer you, guys, when all your arguments are based on your imagination, itself built on top of the vacuum left by the secrets ?

Not relevant. I gave you data.
 
 Ok, sorry, i shouldn't have come back and next time, i'm going to let you dream that Rafale is a totally fucked-up aircraft, with fucked-up weapons, made by self-proclaimed engineers lying all the time. I just hope that one day, i'll create 1 thread so as to make a compilation of all your funny ideas demonstrating that Rafale (or France ? what do you prefer ?) is a joke.

Never said that France had engineers who were no good. (Arianespace disproves this) Just said that Thales, Dassault and MBDA had management criminals who robbed France by pushing second rate product on her armed forces. Add DCN and you just about cover the gamut. I've said this about Lockmart and General Dynamics in the US. What's your beef here/  
 
Sincerely sorry.

Shouldn't be. The truth hurts national pride Nobody likes it when they are sold a bill of goods and hype whether its America, India, or France: we are all rather much in the same boat here.

Herald
 
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Herald12345    SARCASM   7/15/2009 6:48:32 AM

Blue Apple       7/15/2009 4:38:27 AM

http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/anchor.gif" alt="" /> As to the the antenna location on the  MICA? Who cares about that?

Those who are tired of the lies you spread. It appears you are as mistaken about the MICA data link antenna location as you were about the MICA IR cooler (and that's a though level to reach).


I already demolished you on the IR cooler where you were wrong. Now you compound the error. .

For your information, MICA has a rear-facing antenna located in the tail of the missile one the side opposed to the umbilical, just like the AMRAAM (minus the draggy fairing).

The draggy fairing  is there for a very good reason, poster. The MICA antenna  is body shadow occluded by its fins and strakes, plus the antenna is the wrong length to cover aspect presentation distortion. So I wonder what the heck you think you proved except that you just revealed you really don't know why the Mica telemetry antenna doesn't work 

 
And here's another that sets out principles for a form of predict lead.

Congratulation, you've just discovered augmented proportional navigation...

Not the same (CREF below). 

Now could you

1) use the correct term in the future?

2) learn about augmented pronav and see what happens if you have even a small error in the target acceleration evaluation (hint: error becomes greater than vanilla pronav with a >30% overestimate)?

Well, incompetent, there is mechanical bias and there is telemetry update involved in the solutions,. The SARH or proper ATG/RH  method relies on two measurements, range and speed. for a track The IR principle, as I said, requires that you chase the image or the hot spot This (IR solution) is a constant correction process and it is proportional to image drift rate. What that means to you is that the faster the image drifts the harder the missile tries to jerk to follow the drift; so it wastes fuel, increases drag in turns and runs the missile out of potential energy very fast. Exactly a MICA solution as it works out for radar and IR and thus a bungled radar solution.

I've already said that radar missiles can use APN but that's only a refinement of the basic loop system thatackles second order terms. The basic strategy remains the same in both cases.

It doesn't work that way except to those who don't understand what energy management means in a trajectory profile, as chase versus lead, or how to conserve momentum via lead. Mister Lambert and Mister Newton therefore laugh at you. The angular bias that you can correct with either a proper radar seeker or with a proper antenna is HUGE with a single maneuver compared to the small bias corrections that an IR seeker can actually track. (Why do you think modern IR missile seekers gimble? Or in the case of STANDARD's secondary seeker use a side look ring array?)

Oh by the way, the solution (APN) that works for automobile assembly line robots and for some (few) IR missiles chasing constant speed change and bearing targets, doesn't work well when the target maneuvers in three axes wuth variant velocities and direction changes. You might want to check your google skills, there, bucko.
 
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Bluewings12       7/15/2009 11:03:20 AM
Seagull :
"" I didn't intend to come back here, but for BW :
Bluewings :
The pylon has been opened for Meteor as well .
No. Not yet. It's going to happen only if UAE signs the contract. ""

Ok , noted .
**************
Herald , there is something I don ' t get . You always seeemed to have a rather good knowledge on rocketry but Blue Apple is correcting you everytime you bring something specific about the Mica , you lost on all the technical points .
If you are good in missile design , you suppose to have a good doc to help posters to understand your exact meaning . You have been saying for years that the Mica had all sorts of problems but you never backed up anything with a French official link stating that Mica was in trouble or having shortcomings . Then , you wrote BS on the seeker , the airframe , the antenna , etc ... You even used your wrong arguments to bash ASTER (which is a Mica) , but againg all you do is expressing your opinion which to be honest , I discard totally . I put it straight in the bin .
 
Just have a look on the VL Mica and you 'll see that none of what you say is holding water . Launching a A2A Missile vertically and archiving the same kill ratio that when launched from a fighter shows the excellence of the design . A VL missile uses a 360deg possible launch and the guiding radar is immobile , if the guidance and the mid-link was not working properly the missile would not work , as simple as that .
 
So Herald , since we can 't take your words for granted could you please provide us with some sort of proof coming from a reputable website , thank you .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/15/2009 11:44:03 AM
Blue Apple :
(me) : ""This is another unacceptable talk . I never said such BS
Yes you did. This thread is yet another example. The problem is that you start with the a priori that everything on French weapons is state of the art and extrapolate wildly based on very limited information.""
 
No Sir . I 've never said that the French engineering was the best in everything . What I 've been saying (for a very long time) is that the Dassault Rafale is the best 4.5 Generation aircraft in operation .
 
""and extrapolate wildly based on very limited information.""
 
I indeed try sometimes to extrapolate but certainly not "wildly" . When I look at a newer system , I read what the system is capable of on paper as well as in training , then I look for the technicals and pilot reports (if I can find any) and try to draw some possible use and tactics . Btw , this is how engineering is progressing .
To proof my words , I will only quote the French Pilot and his coach who flew the wonderfull latest display at the Le Bourget airshow : ""We don 't know very much the Rafale F3 yet"" .
 
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/15/2009 4:12:47 PM
Rufus , you stop your personal attacks and try to respond on point , thank you and get lost .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/15/2009 4:35:48 PM
Rufus :
""When you can stop lying and repeating BS that has already been corrected 100x I will be nice to you.""
 
This is exactly the kind of BS I want you to stop . This has become a SP forum legend because it is easier to call me names than to counter the facts I post .
In that very thread (2009 display ...etc) , I posted more facts with links , videos , pictures for all to see than any other of my detractors , AS USUAL .
You get lost , clown . Or answer and dispute my saying ...
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/15/2009 4:41:56 PM
Reactive , get lost too .
I hate people trolling about the Rafale and you 're one of them .
 
Cheers .
 
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Reactive    Re:   7/15/2009 4:42:23 PM

Rufus :


""When you can stop lying and repeating BS that has already been corrected 100x I will be nice to you.""

 

This is exactly the kind of BS I want you to stop . This has become a SP forum legend because it is easier to call me names than to counter the facts I post .

In that very thread (2009 display ...etc) , I posted more facts with links , videos , pictures for all to see than any other of my detractors , AS USUAL .


You get lost , clown . Or answer and dispute my saying ...

 

Cheers .






No, Cretin.
 
People have reached the point that it is pointless to prove you wrong, as everyone has done for years, about almost everything you've ever posted on. You act as a clumsy propogandist and have not the slightest interest in objective analysis other than the ones that support your fanboy/idiot/fantasist rubbish.
 
 
 
 
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Bluewings12       7/15/2009 4:53:09 PM
Reactive :
""People have reached the point that it is pointless to prove you wrong, as everyone has done for years, about almost everything you've ever posted on""
 
Mostly because I use official French data and because I know my topic . Actually , very few people proved me wrong and it was mostly on details I was not aware of . To be honest , I hold the high ground on any Rafale 's thread 'cause you don 't know what you 're talking about , you 're not keeping yourselves up to date and because you ' re biaised .
 
I say again , answer the post and not the poster .
 
Cheers .
 
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