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Subject: BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes
maruben    6/12/2009 6:00:08 PM
Friday, June 12, 2009 BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes Europeans make move amid U.S. export ban on stealth fighter By JUN HONGO Staff writer Japan should consider adopting the Eurofighter Typhoon as its next mainstay fighter jet even if the U.S. lifts its ban on exporting the stealthy F-22 Raptor, representatives of a U.K.-based defense and aerospace company said Thursday in Tokyo. The Air Self-Defense Force is eager to replace about 50 of its aging F-4s with the high-tech F-22 for its agility and high stealth capabilities. But recent reports indicate Washington is unlikely to sell its latest and greatest airplane to just anyone, while others say the ¥25 billion plane is too expensive. Andy Latham, BAE System Inc. vice president in charge of Typhoon exports, told reporters that since the Typhoon costs only about ¥10 billion, it presents "an effective non-U.S. solution" with significant benefits for Japan. The Typhoon, made by a consortium of European manufacturers, is already used by the air forces in Europe. Although export of the F-22 would be strictly controlled to prevent its military technology from falling into the wrong hands, Latham said selling the Typhoon will take a "no black box approach." The biggest difference between the two planes will be the "ability to offer Japan's industry a significant package of work," he said, explaining that the consortium could allow licensed manufacturing of the fighter in Japan and integration with Japanese equipment. As for the Typhoon's lack of stealth capability, however, BAE System's Craig Penrice said stealth technology should not be considered an issue. "Stealth is not the silver bullet answer that some might have you think," the former Royal Air Force pilot said, adding that the Typhoon has overall countermeasures against radar detection, including reduced infrared emissions. By comparison, stealth is "not cheap, not low maintenance and not fully exportable," he said. In total, Tokyo is considering six candidates to replace its F-4EJ fighters, including the U.S. F-35, which is still under development. BAE has been pitching the Typhoon to Japan for years, although Tokyo and Washington have a strong defense alliance that leaves little room for non-U.S. bidders, Latham said. Despite recent reports indicating the U.S. is unlikely to provide the F-22 to Japan, Defense Minister Yasukazu Hamada said Tuesday the fighter "remains an option that will be pursued." Japan's strong interest in the aircraft is based not only on its capabilities but also on its compatibility with the U.S. Air Force, which the ASDF would work closely with in the event Japan is attacked. Some observers also say Tokyo is eager to update its aircraft with the most up-to-date fighter available so it can claim air superiority over China, which is continuing to build its military power. Japan's current mainstay fighter is the U.S.-designed F-15 Eagle. P-3C patrols start Kyodo News A Maritime Self-Defense Force P-3C surveillance plane made its first patrol Thursday over the pirate-infested Gulf of Aden off Somalia, the Defense Ministry said. The aircraft is one of two P-3Cs dispatched last month on the first overseas mission by MSDF patrol planes. They are supporting the two MSDF destroyers that have been patrolling for pirates in the gulf since late March. The P-3Cs will gather information on suspicious ships to pass on to the destroyers and the commercial vessels they escort. The information will also be conveyed to navy vessels from other countries operating in the area, according to the ministry. After arriving in Djibouti late last month, the P-3Cs had been conducting training flights. The aircraft are using the international airport in Djibouti as their operational base. The destroyers have been escorting Japanese-related commercial vessels.
 
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SlowMan       6/23/2009 9:56:19 AM
Here is a Japanese perspective on the current F-22 procurement effort by a leading Japanese newspaper. Note that this paper is considered "liberal" in Japan and is concerned more about securing Japanese jobs through license production than straight importation of F-22 to overpower neighboring Koreans and Chinese Airforces like its "conservative" rivals.
 
< http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200906230058.html >

No next-generation fighter waiting in the wings

BY KUNIICHI TANIDA

ASAHI SHIMBUN SENIOR STAFF WRITER

2009/6/23

With their livelihoods dependent on receiving lucrative government business, defense contractors are sweating on the selection of a next-generation fighter for the Air Self-Defense Force.

A number of obstacles, however, have delayed a decision by the Defense Ministry, which is desperate to replace the ASDF's aging F-4 jets as soon as possible.

Defense Ministry officials have long coveted the state-of-the-art F-22 Raptor, but a U.S. congressional ban on the export of the jet was followed by the U.S. government's decision to scrap future production of the jet altogether.

Once a replacement for the F-4 is selected, the Defense Ministry plans to eventually purchase about 50 jets.

Defense contractors fear a longer delay in picking a new fighter could cripple production capabilities in Japan.

Defense Ministry officials have said the F-22 was the most capable fighter jet available today, mainly because of its stealth capabilities that make it difficult to detect by radar. The Raptor also has many sought-after functions, including control of airspace and air-to-ground attack capability.

However, because the technology used in building the F-22 is highly classified, Congress in 2007 banned its export, even to allies.

In April, the administration of U.S. President Barack Obama announced it was cutting off future procurement of the Raptor as part of a review of defense spending.

The jet has a high price tag. Each unit sold to the U.S. Air Force costs about 14 billion yen. Even if exports were allowed, the Defense Ministry might end up paying about 30 billion yen for each jet, with additional development costs included.

Defense Ministry officials have not completely abandoned hope of obtaining the F-22.

Some members of the U.S. Congress are calling for a continuation of production of the F-22 as a way of securing jobs for American workers.

Japanese government officials are believed to have lobbied some American legislators about keeping the Raptor in production.

When he visited the United States in May, Defense Minister Yasukazu Hamada once again told Defense Secretary Robert Gates about Japan's wish to buy the F-22.

Gates in turn tried to convince Hamada to think about purchasing the F-35.

While the F-35 has the same high capabilities of the F-22, it is still in the development stage. Even if the F-35 was eventually exported to Japan, the earliest the jet would be available would be after about 2015.

By that time, the F-4 would be well past its shelf life.

Amid the confused situation, other American and European companies are intensifying their sales efforts.

Among the most eager has been BAE Systems Plc., which serves as point company for the Eurofighter, made by a consortium of four European nations.

BAE Systems has promised to allow licensed production by Japanese companies as well as provision of technology. Officials have also contacted Japanese companies that could serve as candidates for licensed production.

One barrier is the fact that the Defense Ministry has never used a fighter jet made in Europe.

Some within the ASDF have raised concerns about maintenance of the jets, while others in the government worry about potential negative effects on the security alliance with the United States.

Boeing has had close ties with the ASDF for many years and made its own pitch in March by coming out with a new model of its F-15.

The model improves upon the high air-to-ground attack capabilities of the F-15E model while also including stealth capabilities.

Two other jets produced by Boeing had been included on the list of possible successors to the F-4, but were not appraised highly because their designs were considered outdated and they lacked stealth capability.

Now, Boeing officials say they would approve licensed production in Japan of the new F-15SE model as well as provide Japa

 
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Spiky    Keeping its head above water   6/23/2009 11:20:40 AM
Politically, in the halls of Congress it looks like the F-22 is still alive. So, it looks like 12 more Raptors might be squeezed out instead of 4 or 16 (A political compromise?).
 
 
 
US lawmakers seek to extend F-22 jet production
Washington June 18,2009
 
The US House Armed Services Committee has passed an amendment extending production of the F-22 Raptor, a stealth fighter jet the Pentagon has sought to scrub.

Lawmakers voted 31 to 30 on Wednesday to provide 369 million dollars over two years to purchase parts to construct 12 more of the fighters, which are built by Lockheed Martin and Boeing.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates had sought to cap production at 187 jets, meaning only four more would be built. But many Republicans balked at the administration's plans.

The Air Force has also long disagreed with halting production, and just last year called for a fleet of 381 fighters.

Last year Gates sacked the service's two top leaders officially over two major nuclear-related blunders in a move which was also largely suspected to have been fueled by their position on the F-22 program.

In 2009, the Pentagon spent 2.9 billion dollars on the planes, which cost some 200 million dollars each. A program that emerged out of the Cold War, the fighter is accused by its critics of not having been adapted to current conflicts. Supporters though say that there is a need to ensure US air superiority as China and Russia invest in fighter jets.

The Raptor has not been deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan.

The procurement spending came as an amendment to the Pentagon's 2010 defense budget for 550.4 billion dollars. The panel approved the spending bill by a 61 to zero vote.

The budget bill also provides 130 billion dollars for "overseas contingency operations," including the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, a departure from the George W. Bush administration, which had funded the wars through emergency supplemental appropriations.

 
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SlowMan       6/23/2009 11:20:43 AM
 
- Lockheed Martin does want F-22 export to Japan.
- Senator Daniel Inouye projects that an order could be placed by early 2010.
- $2.7 billion nonrecurring cost for engineering of export version and restart of F-22 line.
- $9.3 billion for producing 40 planes.
- A total of $11.6 billion for 40 planes, or $290 million per plane.
- The figures come from USAF, according to Inouye.

 
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SlowMan       6/23/2009 11:22:52 AM
 
- Lockheed Martin does want F-22 export to Japan.
- Senator Daniel Inouye projects that an order could be placed by early 2010.
- $2.7 billion nonrecurring cost for engineering of export version and restart of F-22 line.
- $9.3 billion for producing 40 planes.
- A total of $11.6 billion for 40 planes, or $290 million per plane.
- The figures come from USAF, according to Inouye.

 
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Bluewings12       6/23/2009 12:40:18 PM
Herald :
""If you looked carefully at the three examples I wove together you'd understand, but since you don't know about what an underpowered engine set, a poor lift aspect, and  the usual 1%er whitewash about a jet that failed to maintain instrumented horizon fix means, I suppose you can be forgiven for being ignorant.""
 
You must be joking but I know you don 't , it 's worse . 
lol !
How dare you talk about poor lift , underpowered engine set ??? I show you what is poor lift and underpowered engines :
Look again at this video :
h*tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dohKKp0EvTs&hl=fr
 
From 0:24 seconds to the crash , the F-16 is not flying anymore , it is SINKING . The jet is UNABLE to get any lift and its AoA (angle of attack) is piss poor . Then , it also lacks the needed thrust to escape the ground .
NOW , look again at the Rafale video over the Ocean and check from 0:16 seconds to the end . The jet find its lift muuuch earlier on , then its AoA reaches 30deg and the M88 engines kicks in and it shows .
 
Herald , you supposed to understand what I just said so stop your crap , thank you .
 
Cheers .
 
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warpig       6/23/2009 1:46:40 PM

Herald :


""If you looked carefully at the three examples I wove together you'd understand, but since you don't know about what an underpowered engine set, a poor lift aspect, and  the usual 1%er whitewash about a jet that failed to maintain instrumented horizon fix means, I suppose you can be forgiven for being ignorant.""

 

You must be joking but I know you don 't , it 's worse . 

lol !


How dare you talk about poor lift , underpowered engine set ??? I show you what is poor lift and underpowered engines :

Look again at this video :


h*tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dohKKp0EvTs&hl=fr

 

From 0:24 seconds to the crash , the F-16 is not flying anymore , it is SINKING . The jet is UNABLE to get any lift and its AoA (angle of attack) is piss poor . Then , it also lacks the needed thrust to escape the ground .


NOW , look again at the Rafale video over the Ocean and check from 0:16 seconds to the end . The jet find its lift muuuch earlier on , then its AoA reaches 30deg and the M88 engines kicks in and it shows .

 

Herald , you supposed to understand what I just said so stop your crap , thank you .

 

Cheers .





 
I admit I do not know the details of that crash.  However, I think what was going on there (as was stated in someone's comment to that video) was that the pilot had not set the correct altitude of the airfield before takeoff for the demonstration, and I bet that had something to do with it.  I don't think he was trying to pull out until the very end as he thought he had sufficient altitude for the maneuver he was pulling based on some sort of readout, and it wasn't until it was too late to recover before he realized something was wrong.  He barely started to pull out when he realized it was all over and went for the handles in order to escape in time.

 
 
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Bluewings12       6/23/2009 2:10:27 PM
Your explanation holds water Warpig but the F-16 and the US Pilot were unable to escape a rather bad situation .
Now , do you think that the Rafale pilot did EVEN set the correct altitude for what was a simple show off ???
No , but the Rafale 's flight characteristics and engines saved the day and this is all I 'am gonna say .
 
Cheers .
 
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gf0012-aust       6/23/2009 4:53:57 PM
More concrete info on F-22 exports to Japan surfaces. <link >
- Lockheed Martin does want F-22 export to Japan.
- Senator Daniel Inouye projects that an order could be placed by early 2010.
- $2.7 billion nonrecurring cost for engineering of export version and restart of F-22 line.
- $9.3 billion for producing 40 planes.
- A total of $11.6 billion for 40 planes, or $290 million per plane.
- The figures come from USAF, according to Inouye.
are you being deliberately obtuse or just trolling?
how many bloody times does it have to be said that Inouye does not have the capacity, or the USAF to have the authority to provide any figures on a US military platform to a foreign country?  
It has to be initiated and provided by US State Dept.  
- USAF does not have the legal authority to provide platform costings to a foreign country without a release from State
- The vendor cannot provide costings either otherwise they will get reamed by State as well.  Considering how often the US primes get nailed for ITARS breaches over the last 10 years - this is one thing that sticks front and centre in their minds
Inouye cannot bypass State

Creative assumptive journalism is not "fact" - esp when so many basic facts are wrong it indicates that either Inouye is clueless - or the journalist has an angle and is just as clueless.

 
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Bluewings12       6/23/2009 7:32:14 PM
jf , with all your respect , you are fighting for a lost cause .
I believe that the bloke (Inouye) has excellent insides .
 
Cheers .
 
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Beazz       6/23/2009 9:30:56 PM

Herald :


""If you looked carefully at the three examples I wove together you'd understand, but since you don't know about what an underpowered engine set, a poor lift aspect, and  the usual 1%er whitewash about a jet that failed to maintain instrumented horizon fix means, I suppose you can be forgiven for being ignorant.""

 

You must be joking but I know you don 't , it 's worse . 

lol !


How dare you talk about poor lift , underpowered engine set ??? I show you what is poor lift and underpowered engines :

Look again at this video :


h*tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dohKKp0EvTs&hl=fr

 

From 0:24 seconds to the crash , the F-16 is not flying anymore , it is SINKING . The jet is UNABLE to get any lift and its AoA (angle of attack) is piss poor . Then , it also lacks the needed thrust to escape the ground .


NOW , look again at the Rafale video over the Ocean and check from 0:16 seconds to the end . The jet find its lift muuuch earlier on , then its AoA reaches 30deg and the M88 engines kicks in and it shows .

 

Herald , you supposed to understand what I just said so stop your crap , thank you .

 

Cheers .




Good grief BW, what is obvious to anyone paying attention to the F16 video is that crash had absolutely zilch to do with the performance of the a/c. The pilot was clearly flying on instruments and NOT looking out the windows at all and that makes it painfully obvious he had most likely set his altimeter to the wrong setting. He was expecting to come out of his loop at *X* altitude and then apply power and the picture slearly shows he made NO attempt whatsoever to apply power or pull the a/c up. It was a simple *oh shit* and out he went. Maybe it was to late and maybe it wasn't. I don't know. But that video clearly shows he made no attempt at all to recover from his position. He most likely saw the ground through his peripheral vison and his first reaction was punch out.
Beazz
 
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