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Subject: BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes
maruben    6/12/2009 6:00:08 PM
Friday, June 12, 2009 BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes Europeans make move amid U.S. export ban on stealth fighter By JUN HONGO Staff writer Japan should consider adopting the Eurofighter Typhoon as its next mainstay fighter jet even if the U.S. lifts its ban on exporting the stealthy F-22 Raptor, representatives of a U.K.-based defense and aerospace company said Thursday in Tokyo. The Air Self-Defense Force is eager to replace about 50 of its aging F-4s with the high-tech F-22 for its agility and high stealth capabilities. But recent reports indicate Washington is unlikely to sell its latest and greatest airplane to just anyone, while others say the ¥25 billion plane is too expensive. Andy Latham, BAE System Inc. vice president in charge of Typhoon exports, told reporters that since the Typhoon costs only about ¥10 billion, it presents "an effective non-U.S. solution" with significant benefits for Japan. The Typhoon, made by a consortium of European manufacturers, is already used by the air forces in Europe. Although export of the F-22 would be strictly controlled to prevent its military technology from falling into the wrong hands, Latham said selling the Typhoon will take a "no black box approach." The biggest difference between the two planes will be the "ability to offer Japan's industry a significant package of work," he said, explaining that the consortium could allow licensed manufacturing of the fighter in Japan and integration with Japanese equipment. As for the Typhoon's lack of stealth capability, however, BAE System's Craig Penrice said stealth technology should not be considered an issue. "Stealth is not the silver bullet answer that some might have you think," the former Royal Air Force pilot said, adding that the Typhoon has overall countermeasures against radar detection, including reduced infrared emissions. By comparison, stealth is "not cheap, not low maintenance and not fully exportable," he said. In total, Tokyo is considering six candidates to replace its F-4EJ fighters, including the U.S. F-35, which is still under development. BAE has been pitching the Typhoon to Japan for years, although Tokyo and Washington have a strong defense alliance that leaves little room for non-U.S. bidders, Latham said. Despite recent reports indicating the U.S. is unlikely to provide the F-22 to Japan, Defense Minister Yasukazu Hamada said Tuesday the fighter "remains an option that will be pursued." Japan's strong interest in the aircraft is based not only on its capabilities but also on its compatibility with the U.S. Air Force, which the ASDF would work closely with in the event Japan is attacked. Some observers also say Tokyo is eager to update its aircraft with the most up-to-date fighter available so it can claim air superiority over China, which is continuing to build its military power. Japan's current mainstay fighter is the U.S.-designed F-15 Eagle. P-3C patrols start Kyodo News A Maritime Self-Defense Force P-3C surveillance plane made its first patrol Thursday over the pirate-infested Gulf of Aden off Somalia, the Defense Ministry said. The aircraft is one of two P-3Cs dispatched last month on the first overseas mission by MSDF patrol planes. They are supporting the two MSDF destroyers that have been patrolling for pirates in the gulf since late March. The P-3Cs will gather information on suspicious ships to pass on to the destroyers and the commercial vessels they escort. The information will also be conveyed to navy vessels from other countries operating in the area, according to the ministry. After arriving in Djibouti late last month, the P-3Cs had been conducting training flights. The aircraft are using the international airport in Djibouti as their operational base. The destroyers have been escorting Japanese-related commercial vessels.
 
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prometheus       6/15/2009 11:09:18 AM

@ prometheus



> Besides, in any conceivable scenario, the Typhoon will be used by the Japanese as a defensive interceptor, where it's purported vulnerability to new S-400 SAM systems will not be so apparent, if all the japanese need to do is defend the homeland, then Typhoon (particularly with meteor) will be more than adequate.



Japanese "defensive" air battles will be fought over the seas, where they would be exposed to surface SAMs launched from a couple dozen destroyers; Chinese HQ-9 and Korean SM-2/SM-6 SAMs. The expected battlegrounds are Senkaku Islands where Japanese will be defensive, and Liancourt Rocks, where Japanese would be offensive(Japanese constitutional interpretation is that this is not an invasion since they are "taking back" of what belongs to Japan) (1)


> if they need to fly into the face of Chinese air defences then they may have a problem



This is a requirement. Japanese fighters must be able to evade SAMs launched from Chinese and Korean surface warships. (2)



> but apart form the  legal ramifications to the Japanese constitution, there is no reason to believe that a) US F-22s will not have intervened by then anyway



The US vowed to stay out in Japan Vs Korea showdown. Thus Japanese need its own F-22s.(3)
(1) Yes well, assuming the entire Japanese destroyer force hasn't been sank then there is scope for the removal of some of these SAM systems from the equation. As it is, the theoretical JASDF Typhoon force is merely part of a large integrated defence network, and in such a contest, more than adequate to the task. While inevitably some will be lost, the SAM system you describe are not so formidable that an intelligent air defence based around the Typhoon would not be able to maintain superiority in it's own area.
(2)(3) korean warships? you mention SM-2 missiles so i take it you mean South Korea, there is no way such a conflict would be allowe dto break out, I think we can disgard that particular scenario.

 
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JFKY    The mythical   6/15/2009 11:09:39 AM
Korean/Japanese showdown again....I'm certain that the Koreans haven't just forgotten the Japanese Occupation, but let's be honest...there's no way thta in today's world Korea and Japan fight.  So Japan has to worry about CHINESE SAM's, not KOREAN SAM's.....
 
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FJV    I don't care   6/15/2009 12:33:40 PM
Nobody, outside of the US is gonna have F22's. Keeping the best weapons exclusively for yourself is basic common sense in my opinion.
 
The moment the US is not going to keep it's "alledgedly best" weapons systems exclusively for itself is the moment the US is risking it's superpower status.
 
However you never know how stupid policy can get.http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emcrook.gif" align="absmiddle" border="0" alt="" />
 
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prometheus       6/15/2009 12:42:36 PM

Nobody, outside of the US is gonna have F22's. Keeping the best weapons exclusively for yourself is basic common sense in my opinion.


 

The moment the US is not going to keep it's "alledgedly best" weapons systems exclusively for itself is the moment the US is risking it's superpower status.

 

However you never know how stupid policy can get.http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emcrook.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" />



Apart from F-15s, F-16s, F/A-18s, Aegis, Patriot, the older stuff as well, F-4s, F-104s, M-60 tanks, the M-16 rifle etc etc.
 
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Herald12345    Prom.   6/15/2009 1:44:17 PM




Nobody, outside of the US is gonna have F22's. Keeping the best weapons exclusively for yourself is basic common sense in my opinion.






 



The moment the US is not going to keep it's "alledgedly best" weapons systems exclusively for itself is the moment the US is risking it's superpower status.



 



However you never know how stupid policy can get.http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emcrook.gif" align="absmiddle" border="0" />








Apart from F-15s, F-16s, F/A-18s, Aegis, Patriot, the older stuff as well, F-4s, F-104s, M-60 tanks, the M-16 rifle etc etc.
You know as well as I do, that EU systems exist that were/are as good at the time, if not better in some key respects. (Tanks rifles , interceptor aircraft, strike fighters (though naval missiles and radars were definitely a US edge) Typhoon is a very good plane WE may need it, thanks to that idiot, Gates..
 
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SlowMan       6/15/2009 2:13:32 PM
@ prometheus

> the SAM system you describe are not so formidable

SM-2 is not so formidable?

> there is no way such a conflict would be allowe dto break out, I think we can disgard that particular scenario.

Unfortunately, Asian war planners are not precluding that particular scenario, because that particular scenario is very real to them. There are a whole set of war plans to carry out such war by both sides.

@ JFKY

> there's no way thta in today's world Korea and Japan fight.

There is a vicious 50-year old territorial dispute between them. East Asia isn't like Europe at all, where there is no NATO-like stabilizing force in the region and every country has territorial dispute with its neighbors.
 
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JFKY    Slowman   6/15/2009 2:38:42 PM
> there's no way thta in today's world Korea and Japan fight.

There is a vicious 50-year old territorial dispute between them. East Asia isn't like Europe at all, where there is no NATO-like stabilizing force in the region and every country has territorial dispute with its neighbors.
 
No there's a protracted dispute....a VICIOUS dispute is what happened in the Balkans.  People being unhappy for 50 years is not "vicious."
 
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FJV    The thing I worry about.   6/15/2009 2:58:28 PM
I don't worry too much about the number of F22's *1). The fact that I don't see new fighter plane designs being started already makes me nervous.
 
What worries me is that some moron in an authority position is gonna say "We can do everything with UAV's" and cancel/screw up the only manned fighter program left, without any new fighter programs forthcoming. This will seriously damage/destroy the US fighter plane industry to the point that you may not recover the lost "know how" in the future.

The we can do everything with UAV's message is a very appealing one to sell to politicians, because it promises that they can take military actions without the price of risking pilots. The freedom to do foreign military strikes without any repercussions at home, what narcissist politician is not tempted by such a deal, even if it is BS? The companies selling will know it is BS, but since they make money on it, they will not tell it is BS of course.
 
*1) Because I really suspect I'm being lied to about how good the F22 is and suspect a rip off.
 
Anyone who has designed anything knows how difficult it is to design something that is 2 to 3 times as good as an existing average design. Anyone who has designed anything knows how impossibly difficult it can be to design something that is 2 to 3 times as good as a top notch design.
 
Now when I see excersizes where the F22 gets a kill ratio of 108 to 0 they are basically telling me that the F22 is at least a 108 times! improvement over the F15. Without using any new, previously unheard of technology I might add. (stealth technology dating back to the 70's and 80's). Now either I believe that the designers are that superhumanly good, or I suspect that the excersize was rigged. Occam's razor says the second option is most likely.
 
The interesting thing is though that I have read that the F35 is a "relatively" well run program "according to Pentagon standards" cancelling or messing up that program would be a bad IMHO.
 
 
 
 
 
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usajoe1    F-35 the next best option.   6/15/2009 6:25:45 PM
There is no chance that Japan will get the Raptor, so if it wants a true 5th genaration fighter, with full stealth tech. and the next best thing to the Raptor, it should go for the F-35. The Lightning may not have the Raptors A2A capabilities but it is much better than the Rafale, Gripen, SH, or any other 4+ genaration fighter out there, including the Typhoon. The Typhoon, as good as it is in A2A operations, is still a fighter that belongs in the category of other 4th genaration fighters. If the Japanese want the next best thing then they do not have to look far, there is no comparisons between the F-35 and the other options available to Japan.
 
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VelocityVector    Bekaa Valley   6/15/2009 6:43:30 PM

I don't worry too much about the number of F22's *1).
*1) Because I really suspect I'm being lied to about how good the F22 is and suspect a rip off.
Now when I see excersizes where the F22 gets a kill ratio of 108 to 0 they are basically telling me that the F22 is at least a 108 times! improvement over the F15. Without using any new, previously unheard of technology I might add. (stealth technology dating back to the 70's and 80's). <deletions>

You can't kill what your systems can't see or hit.  I believe F-22 is at least as powerful as has been advertised.  0.02

v^2


 
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