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Subject: BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes
maruben    6/12/2009 6:00:08 PM
Friday, June 12, 2009 BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes Europeans make move amid U.S. export ban on stealth fighter By JUN HONGO Staff writer Japan should consider adopting the Eurofighter Typhoon as its next mainstay fighter jet even if the U.S. lifts its ban on exporting the stealthy F-22 Raptor, representatives of a U.K.-based defense and aerospace company said Thursday in Tokyo. The Air Self-Defense Force is eager to replace about 50 of its aging F-4s with the high-tech F-22 for its agility and high stealth capabilities. But recent reports indicate Washington is unlikely to sell its latest and greatest airplane to just anyone, while others say the ¥25 billion plane is too expensive. Andy Latham, BAE System Inc. vice president in charge of Typhoon exports, told reporters that since the Typhoon costs only about ¥10 billion, it presents "an effective non-U.S. solution" with significant benefits for Japan. The Typhoon, made by a consortium of European manufacturers, is already used by the air forces in Europe. Although export of the F-22 would be strictly controlled to prevent its military technology from falling into the wrong hands, Latham said selling the Typhoon will take a "no black box approach." The biggest difference between the two planes will be the "ability to offer Japan's industry a significant package of work," he said, explaining that the consortium could allow licensed manufacturing of the fighter in Japan and integration with Japanese equipment. As for the Typhoon's lack of stealth capability, however, BAE System's Craig Penrice said stealth technology should not be considered an issue. "Stealth is not the silver bullet answer that some might have you think," the former Royal Air Force pilot said, adding that the Typhoon has overall countermeasures against radar detection, including reduced infrared emissions. By comparison, stealth is "not cheap, not low maintenance and not fully exportable," he said. In total, Tokyo is considering six candidates to replace its F-4EJ fighters, including the U.S. F-35, which is still under development. BAE has been pitching the Typhoon to Japan for years, although Tokyo and Washington have a strong defense alliance that leaves little room for non-U.S. bidders, Latham said. Despite recent reports indicating the U.S. is unlikely to provide the F-22 to Japan, Defense Minister Yasukazu Hamada said Tuesday the fighter "remains an option that will be pursued." Japan's strong interest in the aircraft is based not only on its capabilities but also on its compatibility with the U.S. Air Force, which the ASDF would work closely with in the event Japan is attacked. Some observers also say Tokyo is eager to update its aircraft with the most up-to-date fighter available so it can claim air superiority over China, which is continuing to build its military power. Japan's current mainstay fighter is the U.S.-designed F-15 Eagle. P-3C patrols start Kyodo News A Maritime Self-Defense Force P-3C surveillance plane made its first patrol Thursday over the pirate-infested Gulf of Aden off Somalia, the Defense Ministry said. The aircraft is one of two P-3Cs dispatched last month on the first overseas mission by MSDF patrol planes. They are supporting the two MSDF destroyers that have been patrolling for pirates in the gulf since late March. The P-3Cs will gather information on suspicious ships to pass on to the destroyers and the commercial vessels they escort. The information will also be conveyed to navy vessels from other countries operating in the area, according to the ministry. After arriving in Djibouti late last month, the P-3Cs had been conducting training flights. The aircraft are using the international airport in Djibouti as their operational base. The destroyers have been escorting Japanese-related commercial vessels.
 
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SlowMan       7/8/2009 11:26:16 PM
 
Newly introduced "North Korea Punishment" bill introduced to the US Senate includes an F-22 export provision.
 
In other word, punish North Korea by selling F-22 to Japan.
 
The force to export F-22 to Japan is strong within the US Senate, as these senators are trying to export F-22 to Japan at every possible opportunity, be it the 2010 Defense Budget bill or the "Punish North Korea" bill.
 
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gf0012-aust       7/9/2009 2:21:32 AM
It's bad enough that you're a troll, but it's worse that you're too stubborn to even comprehend why an export F-22 is about as remotely possible as Vladimir Putin being Michael Jacksons long lost sister...

if the US decides to sell all of their own F-22's then that would fix their spiral development and sustainment problem in ine hit.  The Japanese pay triple the price for a baseline F-22 and the US goes out and does a new architecture and systems development with all that lovely money.

Make effort to understand the technical embuggerances and you'll start to see why political colour and movement is taking priority over considered thought.

But, I must say I'd love to see the Japanese get the F-22, it would throw the rest of the fanboys in asia into a tiz and let them focus on something else for a while. It's combat aviations version of Oliver Twist.... :)
 
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Herald12345       7/9/2009 5:22:46 AM

@ herold12345



> Explain the rollerons and the URCOM seeker



Different missiles can share design features and parts.

No they don't. There is only one source for rollerons and that kind of seeker. 

> Lie. East Timor

Is East Timor a security threat equal to North Korea, China, Russia, and South Korea?

The battlespace is what i discuss, not your concepts of "military power". Indonesia is a security threat in that context..  

> Israel imports cars from the EU.

 
They also build THESE:
 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Merkava_mk_iv084.jpg" width="677" height="507" /> 
 
 And from China. What's important is that there is no Israeli auto industry. Auto industry is an important indicator of a country's manufacturing sector's strength.

Not a one, Slowman, not a one. NOBODY with a right mind buys cars from China.  

> SSM-1

SSM-1 is a ground-launched anti-ship missile. It is not a cruise missile.

By definition HARPOON (SSM-1) is a cruise missile. Don't say it isn't and don't try to claim that you know. You don't. 

> So is yours.
Yours more.

I won't bandy words with  the uninformed. I'll let the facts speak. They spoke.
 
And THAT makes me right, and you just another ignorant kid.. One of oh so many.


 
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SlowMan       7/9/2009 2:09:33 PM
@ gf0012-aust

> you're too stubborn to even comprehend why an export F-22 is about as remotely possible as Vladimir Putin being Michael Jacksons long lost sister...

Tell that to the Senators behind it, including Senator Jon Kyl, GOP's No. 2 senator. Clearly, GOP leadership is behind this "Let's export F-22 to Japan and save precious F-22 jobs in this terrible economic condition" movement within the Senate. I am just posting here what I have been reading elsewhere.

> if the US decides to sell all of their own F-22's

Japanese would love to have the used F-22s from the USAF inventory instead of brand new ones engineered just for them. These planes are USAF-spec machines full of classified techs, right?

@ Herald12345

> No they don't. There is only one source for rollerons and that kind of seeker.

Used by different missile makers for different missiles.

> The battlespace is what i discuss, not your concepts of "military power". Indonesia is a security threat in that context..  

Again, are East Timor and Indonesia the kind of security threats that Japan faces, like China, North Korea, South Korea, and Russia??

> Not a one, Slowman, not a one. NOBODY with a right mind buys cars from China.  

Tell that to Israelis. < http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2231786/ >

> By definition HARPOON (SSM-1) is a cruise missile.

It isn't. Harpoon is a radar-guided missile with short-range, whereas real cruise missiles operated by China are Korea are GPS guided with terrain contour matching with enough range to strike all of Japan from their respective homelands.

You can blame it on Japan's "Peace" Constitution written by the US occupational force authority back in the 40s for this.
 
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Basilisk Station       7/9/2009 2:38:11 PM
Tell that to the Senators behind it, including Senator Jon Kyl, GOP's No. 2 senator. Clearly, GOP leadership is behind this "Let's export F-22 to Japan and save precious F-22 jobs in this terrible economic condition" movement within the Senate. I am just posting here what I have been reading elsewhere.
 
Hate to break it to you, but the Republican's aren't running either the Senate, House or White House and the Dems now have 60 votes in the Senate. Which (assuming they were actually organized and disciplined) would mean they could cut out a lot of Republican obstructionism.
 
It isn't. Harpoon is a radar-guided missile with short-range, whereas real cruise missiles operated by China are Korea are GPS guided with terrain contour matching with enough range to strike all of Japan from their respective homelands.



You can blame it on Japan's "Peace" Constitution written by the US occupational force authority back in the 40s for this.
Being a cruise missile has nothing to do with range. The Harpoon has a jet engine and flies a very low level flight path. That's a cruise missile.

You do realize that it's an anti-ship missile not a land attack missile don't you? That's why the range is short.
 
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gf0012-aust       7/9/2009 4:56:57 PM

@ gf0012-aust >  you're too stubborn to even comprehend why an export F-22 is about as remotely possible as Vladimir Putin being Michael Jacksons long lost sister...

slowman > Tell that to the Senators behind it, including Senator Jon Kyl, GOP's No. 2 senator. Clearly, GOP leadership is behind this "Let's export F-22 to Japan and save precious F-22 jobs in this terrible economic condition" movement within the Senate. I am just posting here what I have been reading elsewhere.

I applaud your enthusiasm, but reality has to bite in any debate.  the US has an administration that has already decided that it is going to refocus the way it does business with other countries,  Gates has made other slight changes such as emphasising greenwater ops over a blue water navy, point blank he has said that the USN needs to go greenwater.  considering that the USN has been since the time of Adm Towers regarded as the "sword and the shield" - then its more than just a build issue.  its a doctrine issue, its a significant political shift.  Now one doesn't have to think too hard that if the US is seriously looking at abandoning the 1000 ship navy concept, (as LCS by association forces it to do) - then its aircraft programs are going to follow a similar political line.
None of those congressman so publicly frothing and panting at the bit can change the reality that they're up against State (Clinton) and DoD (Gates) either of whom have the same philisophical view as POTUS on a thin military. 
gf0012-aust > if the US decides to sell all of their own F-22's

slowman > Japanese would love to have the used F-22s from the USAF inventory instead of brand new ones engineered just for them. These planes are USAF-spec machines full of classified techs, right?

no, they would have to be ITARs restricted assets, so they would be gutted.  paying almost triple the price for a gutted capability is not something that the DIET would be too excited about.  On top of which, (like the JSF and Israel), the US isn't going to hand over integration data so that Japan (or Sth Korea or Israel or Australia or Botswana or Belize) can add their own electronics and weapons systems.  again, there are at a minimum 3 baseline build variants of the F-22.  So there is no point Japan getting them because she would inherit the same issues that the USAF has now (and without the support of the vendor who knows that they have to do a rearguard to keep the line open so have trotted out the mudfighter as a form of aviation engineerings "texas hold)

me? well I'd love to see the Japanese get the F-22 as I think that China is going to be a problem circa 2025. The US is going to need all the help that it can get as that country flexes its muscles and starts to morph economic belligerence and muscle into military belligerence to support its economic rise.

either way state congressmen twittering about local economics and local state economies are not going to have any clout against Obey, ITARs (and 2 congressmen out of 350+ ??)) will not shift an amendment.  Then they have to change the  mind of Hilary, Gates, Obama.

The only way that Japan will get F-22's is if China has a brain fart, does a hitler and strikes too early.  Considering that chinese politics revolves around gestation and delivery periods over decades (planned thought) - then thats so far remote to be almost non existent.   If china has a brain fart and goes early, then the US would be doling out more than F-22's to its allies.


again, my considered unemotional view.  If the US was not in its economic and political state, I'd love to see F-22's sitting in Okinawa.  The chinese only respect force as it represents strength of character and political intent.  This "softly softly play nice and we'll all sing songs around the banyan tree" approach  is just going to bite us on the arse come 2020-2030. 
 

 
 
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usajoe1    GF   7/9/2009 7:35:29 PM
point blank he has said that the USN needs to go greenwater
 
Can you please tell me when and where he made this statment. The USN is going to be a 11 CSG navy until at list 2050, so I'm wondering how Gates plans to change the navy into a greenwater force? Even if he has this belief, it will not happen in his lifetime.
 
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DarthAmerica       7/9/2009 8:01:21 PM

point blank he has said that the USN needs to go greenwater
 

Can you please tell me when and where he made this statment. The USN is going to be a 11 CSG navy until at list 2050, so I'm wondering how Gates plans to change the navy into a greenwater force? Even if he has this belief, it will not happen in his lifetime.


That doesn't mean we are conceding our Blue Water capability. It only means that the USN will refocus some of its procurement efforts and doctrine at the increasingly important Greenwater requirements as the USN so completely dominates the Bluewater 
that for all intents and purposes there are no legit challengers in that battlespace.

-DA 
 
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usajoe1       7/9/2009 8:25:10 PM
That doesn't mean we are conceding our Blue Water capability. It only means that the USN will refocus some of its procurement efforts and doctrine at the increasingly important Greenwater requirements as the USN so completely dominates the Bluewater 
that for all intents and purposes there are no legit challengers in that battlespace.
I wonder if you study history? If you did you would not make this comment "there are no legit challengers in that battlespace"
You think the world is going to be the same 20 years from now? It's people like Obama, Gtaes, Carter and you that make this assumptions, and are always proven wrong! You don't downgrade just because there is no threat TODAY!
 
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gf0012-aust       7/9/2009 9:18:37 PM

point blank he has said that the USN needs to go greenwater

Can you please tell me when and where he made this statment. The USN is going to be a 11 CSG navy until at list 2050, so I'm wondering how Gates plans to change the navy into a greenwater force? Even if he has this belief, it will not happen in his lifetime.

DefenceNews regarding LCS in the last fortnight,
If its his belief that you disagree with, then you need to convince him - not me. :) 
My views on  where the next fight will be are pretty well established.

 
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