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Subject: BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes
maruben    6/12/2009 6:00:08 PM
Friday, June 12, 2009 BAE pitching Typhoon as F-22 eludes Europeans make move amid U.S. export ban on stealth fighter By JUN HONGO Staff writer Japan should consider adopting the Eurofighter Typhoon as its next mainstay fighter jet even if the U.S. lifts its ban on exporting the stealthy F-22 Raptor, representatives of a U.K.-based defense and aerospace company said Thursday in Tokyo. The Air Self-Defense Force is eager to replace about 50 of its aging F-4s with the high-tech F-22 for its agility and high stealth capabilities. But recent reports indicate Washington is unlikely to sell its latest and greatest airplane to just anyone, while others say the ¥25 billion plane is too expensive. Andy Latham, BAE System Inc. vice president in charge of Typhoon exports, told reporters that since the Typhoon costs only about ¥10 billion, it presents "an effective non-U.S. solution" with significant benefits for Japan. The Typhoon, made by a consortium of European manufacturers, is already used by the air forces in Europe. Although export of the F-22 would be strictly controlled to prevent its military technology from falling into the wrong hands, Latham said selling the Typhoon will take a "no black box approach." The biggest difference between the two planes will be the "ability to offer Japan's industry a significant package of work," he said, explaining that the consortium could allow licensed manufacturing of the fighter in Japan and integration with Japanese equipment. As for the Typhoon's lack of stealth capability, however, BAE System's Craig Penrice said stealth technology should not be considered an issue. "Stealth is not the silver bullet answer that some might have you think," the former Royal Air Force pilot said, adding that the Typhoon has overall countermeasures against radar detection, including reduced infrared emissions. By comparison, stealth is "not cheap, not low maintenance and not fully exportable," he said. In total, Tokyo is considering six candidates to replace its F-4EJ fighters, including the U.S. F-35, which is still under development. BAE has been pitching the Typhoon to Japan for years, although Tokyo and Washington have a strong defense alliance that leaves little room for non-U.S. bidders, Latham said. Despite recent reports indicating the U.S. is unlikely to provide the F-22 to Japan, Defense Minister Yasukazu Hamada said Tuesday the fighter "remains an option that will be pursued." Japan's strong interest in the aircraft is based not only on its capabilities but also on its compatibility with the U.S. Air Force, which the ASDF would work closely with in the event Japan is attacked. Some observers also say Tokyo is eager to update its aircraft with the most up-to-date fighter available so it can claim air superiority over China, which is continuing to build its military power. Japan's current mainstay fighter is the U.S.-designed F-15 Eagle. P-3C patrols start Kyodo News A Maritime Self-Defense Force P-3C surveillance plane made its first patrol Thursday over the pirate-infested Gulf of Aden off Somalia, the Defense Ministry said. The aircraft is one of two P-3Cs dispatched last month on the first overseas mission by MSDF patrol planes. They are supporting the two MSDF destroyers that have been patrolling for pirates in the gulf since late March. The P-3Cs will gather information on suspicious ships to pass on to the destroyers and the commercial vessels they escort. The information will also be conveyed to navy vessels from other countries operating in the area, according to the ministry. After arriving in Djibouti late last month, the P-3Cs had been conducting training flights. The aircraft are using the international airport in Djibouti as their operational base. The destroyers have been escorting Japanese-related commercial vessels.
 
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Rufus       6/28/2009 12:31:26 PM
The above post is what you get when you try to have a real discussion with a troll.
 
 
 
 
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Herald12345       6/28/2009 2:51:03 PM

@ gf0012-aust

> What undowngraded LO capabilities?

ShinShin would not have any "intentional" stealth downgrades like the export version of F-35.

Since I wonder where the LO features of the wrongly designed ShinShun are (jet engine inlet tunnels for example), what down graded paths?
 
> where is it on any japanese plane?

The engine for ShinShin has 3D thrust vectoring.

The design seen is called a 2d  paddle divert. Heavy  and complex. Interesting but hard to mask. Guess why?

 
> the issue is jobs for license or jobs for indigenous.

F-35 is not available for license production. Japanese intended to fill the high-end with imported F-22 and low-end with ShinShin to sustain their domestic aerospace industry. Filling high-end with ShinShin and low-end with imported F-35 is not what Japanese planned.

> what japanese missiles are under development for use on an aviation platform?

Mitsubishi AAM-3 & 4 A2A missiles, ASM-1 and ASM-2 anti-ship missiles, and a whole bunch of follow-up missiles. Integrating these into F-35 is problematic, as Israel can testify.

AAM-3 is Sidewinder in a Mitsubishi8 skin. It uses ITALIAN actuators and a US IRCOM GCU seeker. The only domestic part is the SLR.
AAM-4 is ASPIDE 2000 in a Mitsubishi skin equipped with a ATG AMRAAM type seeker front end and SARH command update. Mitsubuushi engineers owe a lot to Raytheorn and Selenia (now Alenia). 

> there are 8 countries that will be using JSF for air superiority from day 1.

Those are NATO countries facing low-security threat. Japan is not in a low-security threat environment; it faces China, Russia, South Korea, and North Korea, all eager to "settle the score" with Japan.

Australia is one of the countries, The UNITED STATES is the third other that GF didn't mention because our Eagle fleet will be worn out and we have to use sopmething to backstop the Raptors.. .

> there are 2 that will use it as air superiority options "day 2"

And they would be using Typhoon as their primary air-superiority fighter.

Why?

> Unfort for some of those who carry on about JSF not being able to do air superiority, every one of the partners have run the Brawler sims, we actually do have real empirical information on the flanker family and its derivatives

Well, Japanese have to factor in PAK-FA, J-14, F-15K, KFX, and SM-2 launched from Aegis ships in their battle simulation.

PAK-FA doesn't exist.


> The israelis have got more aviation and weapons development experience than japan and sth korea even remotely have, and yet they know that building their own is an exercise in budgetary implosion.

Israel is a small country with a modest economy. Japan and Korea are industrial powerhouses committed to fostering their own aerospace industry.

Israel is not that modest. They produce more tanks and rockets than Japane does!

> If you can't integrate into the JSF without recertifying core components and or system behaviours, then you sure as heck can't do it with the F-22.

Japanese would bend over to have F-22, like maintaining them in Lockheed Martin run facilities and using only US missiles, but Japanese would not extend the same to F-35, something that Japanese feel they could do better themselves.

The F-35 has exactlt the same coding problems as the F-22 in some cases worse. (DASS)

> If the japanese want to get a new type fielded in time, then they either get Typhoon or they get JSF.

It's F-22 or Typhoon, not F-35. F-35 is out of question other than F-35Bs for their flattops.

Are you kidding? Even the JASDF has to BOMB.

> anything but JSF gives them a capability thats close to what they caurrently have with their F-15's, so why would they bother.

Typhoon is a superior Air-Superiorty fighter to F-35, the primary air-defense fighter of UK and Turkey that are also buying F-35s.

Typhoon = Air-Superiority mission

F-35 = Strike mission.

F-35 is a swing role fighter. It HAS to be NOW.
 
 
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Reactive       6/28/2009 4:55:32 PM
I er..
 
I also made a LO fighter, it is going to be developed in 5 years, at a cost of.. $500, and will be able to defeat the F22, I've sent a prototype to france, where they assure me that it will indeed beat everything out there (excepting the rafale of course, which can send cyborgs backwards through time to kill the father of the pilot who launched the missile).
 
So far the clay prototype has done everything expected of it, and more.
 
So far, providing I can get you an image that looks vaguely stealthy I seem to have similar levels of credibility for the shinshin, except that of course, I am only joking.
 
ReactivE
 
 
 
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SlowMan       6/29/2009 9:36:07 AM
@ herald12345

> AAM-3 is Sidewinder in a Mitsubishi8 skin.

AAM-3 is a sidewinder replacement, not a sidewinder

> AAM-4 is ASPIDE 2000 in a Mitsubishi skin equipped with a ATG AMRAAM type seeker front end and SARH command update.
 
AAM-4 is a sparrow replacement, not a sparrow.

> Australia is one of the countries,

The security threat level faced by Australia is pretty low so F-35 is good enough for them. After all, Australia's only security threat is China, which is far away and has put Australia at the bottom of its security priority list.

> The UNITED STATES is the third

The US has 183 Raptors.

> Why?

Ask RAF why. Same goes for Turkey, which isn't satisfied with F-35 and is planning to import Typhoon as their primary air superiority fighter.

> Israel is not that modest.

Israel doesn't have a major manufacturing industrial base like Japan and Korea do. On the other hand, Japan and Korea are major manufacturing powerhouses that can support an aerospace industry. It is only natural that Japan and Korea get into aerospace industry, and support them by doing indigenous military plane projects.

> They produce more tanks and rockets than Japane does!

Because GSDF is treated like sh*t in Japan while Israeli army gets the major share of funding and manpower?

> Are you kidding? Even the JASDF has to BOMB.

Strategic bombing is against Japanese constitution. And Japan has enough CAS capability. Thus no need for F-35's strike capability.

> F-35 is a swing role fighter. It HAS to be NOW.

F-35 isn't good enough to meet Japanese requirement for an air-superiority fighter.

> So they can sell to Taiwan. Its called a cutout

No one dares to sell weapons to Taiwan. Only the likes of US and Russia could.

> What upgrade?

Avionics upgrade to support new capability and weapon.

> They want it and would be glad to get it. Their Air Force is not composed of fan boys.

I see a real-time tracking of F-22 export progress in Japanese press.

> Icelanders and British have shot at each. (fisheries war).  Means that Uncle and the EU has to knock heads together from time to time to break up the three stooges episode..

It's not some fishing and trade rights that is in the dispute; it's the territorial issue, where a political settlement is not possible(you do not negotiate over your territory) and the only means of settlement is through a military action.
 
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Herald12345       6/29/2009 11:05:58 AM

@ herald12345



> AAM-3 is Sidewinder in a Mitsubishi8 skin.



AAM-3 is a sidewinder replacement, not a sidewinder

Its a Sidewinder. Get over yourself, kid.  I know China Lake and Raytheon when I see it. The rollerons are a dead giveaway.

> AAM-4 is ASPIDE 2000 in a Mitsubishi skin equipped with a ATG AMRAAM type seeker front end and SARH command update.

AAM-4 is a sparrow replacement, not a sparrow.

So is the Italian style 2d actuator control setup and the front end canards on the ASPIDE clone. Who the hell do you think you are dealing with?

> Australia is one of the countries,

The security threat level faced by Australia is pretty low so F-35 is good enough for them. After all, Australia's only security threat is China, which is far away and has put Australia at the bottom of its security priority list.

Australia has declared that it will use Sparky air to air. She many times fights where we fight. Also Konfrontassi. East Timor. These are bits of HISTORY, kid. The Australians have a very violent neighborhood that has seen a LOT MORE FIGHTING than your nrighborhood has recently.  

> The UNITED STATES is the third

The US has 183 Raptors.

Pay attention. WE don't have enough Raptors to cover everywhere we need to cover. We need more ourselves potentially because of idiots like "fill in the blank" (you know who you are).

> Why?

Ask RAF why. Same goes for Turkey, which isn't satisfied with F-35 and is planning to import Typhoon as their primary air superiority fighter.

-Last time I checked the RAF wanted their F-35s desperately as does Turkey. You haven't stooped to LYING have you?

> Israel is not that modest.

Israel doesn't have a major manufacturing industrial base like Japan and Korea do. On the other hand, Japan and Korea are major manufacturing powerhouses that can support an aerospace industry. It is only natural that Japan and Korea get into aerospace industry, and support them by doing indigenous military plane projects.

Israel gas something your tecjhnplpgists and engoneers lack, WILL and experience.  A factory is only a building. These people build atomic bombs, ROCKETS, and tanks. They play for keeps. They aren't pretend modelmakers and copyists , boy. They are for REAL.
 
> They produce more tanks and rockets than Japane does!

Because GSDF is treated like sh*t in Japan while Israeli army gets the major share of funding and manpower?

No, because they are surrounded and they know what it means to FAIL. Its been a long time since the Japanese were subjected to WAR. I also point out for a boy who has an opinion so variant with evidence, I wonder if you have actually seen the JGSDF forces? I'm getting feedback from professionals whgo hgave whgo suggest that you don't know what you talk about. I also see for myself that you don't know what you discuss. 


> Are you kidding? Even the JASDF has to BOMB.

Strategic bombing is against Japanese constitution. And Japan has enough CAS capability. Thus no need for F-35's strike capability.

Tactical bombimg isn't, and what are all those ground launched cruise missiles for?


> F-35 is a swing role fighter. It HAS to be NOW.

F-35 isn't good enough to meet Japanese requirement for an air-superiority fighter.

Your opinion is meaningless and worthless to ME. Why is it not good enough? FACTS. 


> So they can sell to Taiwan. Its called a cutout

No one dares to sell weapons to Taiwan. Only the likes of US and Russia could.

France. Israel. South Africa. Spain.   See? This is why you are incompetent.


> What upgrade?

Avionics upgrade to support new capability and weapon.

Again what upgrade. I have a vert specific answer I want, not meaningless noise from a boy..


> They want it and would be glad to get it. Their Air Force is not composed of fan boys.

I see a real-time tracking of F-22 export progress in Japanese press.

I see it too. The noise is just that, noise.

> Icelanders and British have shot at each. (fisheries war).  Means that Uncle and the EU has to knock heads together from time to time to break up the three stooges episode..

 
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maruben    Herald   6/29/2009 11:42:27 AM
GF, you're right. He's a fanboy.

 

 I support that conclusion.
 
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SlowMan       6/29/2009 2:51:42 PM
@ Herald12345

> Its a Sidewinder.

It isn't.

> Australia has declared that it will use Sparky air to air.

Because its security threat level is low.

> She many times fights where we fight.

But not the Australian airforce.

> The Australians have a very violent neighborhood that has seen a LOT MORE FIGHTING than your nrighborhood has recently.

So East Timor is somehow more threatening than China, Russia, North Korea and South Korea?

> Israel gas something your tecjhnplpgists and engoneers lack, WILL and experience.

And Israel imports cars from China because there is no Israeli auto industry. Of course Israel has a number of world-class R&D centers staffed by Jewish engineers, but that's it. No real manufacturing in Israel to support an aerospace industry.

> I wonder if you have actually seen the JGSDF forces?

No, but I have heard enough Japanese jokes about GSDF to know they are considered worthless even to the Japanese.

> Tactical bombimg isn't, and what are all those ground launched cruise missiles for?

Japan doesn't have cruise missile.

> Your opinion is meaningless and worthless to ME.

So is yours.

> you're right. He's a fanboy.
 
Does that make you a fangranpa??? Sure, fangrandpa. 
 
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Herald12345       6/29/2009 3:27:33 PM

@ Herald12345



> Its a Sidewinder.

It isn't.

Explain the rollerons and the URCOM seeker, boy.

> Australia has declared that it will use Sparky air to air.

Because its security threat level is low.

Lie. East Timor

> She many times fights where we fight.

But not the Australian airforce.

Lie. As in NOW.

> The Australians have a very violent neighborhood that has seen a LOT MORE FIGHTING than your nrighborhood has recently.
 
So East Timor is somehow more threatening than China, Russia, North Korea and South Korea?

To them? Probably as Indonesia and they came to blows over it twice.

> Israel gas something your tecjhnplpgists and engoneers lack, WILL and experience.

And Israel imports cars from China because there is no Israeli auto industry. Of course Israel has a number of world-class R&D centers staffed by Jewish engineers, but that's it. No real manufacturing in Israel to support an aerospace industry.

Israel imports cars from the EU. You are kind of ignorant. Did you know this or are you just discovering this for the first time?
 
 
> I wonder if you have actually seen the JGSDF forces?

No, but I have heard enough Japanese jokes about GSDF to know they are considered worthless even to the Japanese.

Now I can add this to the data about you. Jokes huh? How can I tell if I am dealing with a fool? When he claims jokes are facts. That is a joke about you, boy. Are you a fool?

> Tactical bombimg isn't, and what are all those ground launched cruise missiles for?

Japan doesn't have cruise missile.

 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/JGSDF_Type88_SSM-02.jpg/800px-JGSDF_Type88_SSM-02.jpg" width="710" height="472" /> 
Those are SSM-2a or HARPOONS.
 
> Your opinion is meaningless and worthless to ME.

So is yours.

Mine is backed by fact anbd proven expertise. What is yours again? Oh yes, LIES (See above.) .

> you're right. He's a fanboy.
 
Does that make you a fangranpa??? Sure, fangrandpa.
 
Nope. it makes me right, and you just another ignorant kid.. One of oh so many.
Get an education here by being silent and READING. I'll teach you something that you can go back to your fanboy friends and actually show them you know something.real after you learn here.
 
Herald
 
 
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SlowMan       7/3/2009 11:07:08 AM
 
So that would mean three countries(Japan, Korea, and Israel) are now definite F-22 buyers if the export ban is lifted, for a minimum order of at least 140 units between three.
 
This makes a compelling economic argument for the continued F-22 production via export.
 
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SlowMan       7/3/2009 11:15:08 AM
@ herold12345

> Explain the rollerons and the URCOM seeker

Different missiles can share design features and parts.

> Lie. East Timor

Is East Timor a security threat equal to North Korea, China, Russia, and South Korea?

> Israel imports cars from the EU.

And from China. What's important is that there is no Israeli auto industry. Auto industry is an important indicator of a country's manufacturing sector's strength.

> SSM-1

SSM-1 is a ground-launched anti-ship missile. It is not a cruise missile.

> So is yours.

Yours more.

> Nope. it makes me right, and you just another ignorant kid.. One of oh so many.

Whatever, fangrandpa.

 
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