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Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins. The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs. The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start. Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach. Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays. Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet. Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutti
 
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DarthAmerica       5/12/2009 6:19:59 PM

PlG,



Well I guess we just have to agree to disagree. If you are right then I guess I just can't fathom why such an amazing aircraft isn't competitive on the open market vs virtually every other 4th Gen fighter competitor to include Russian and Chinese.



-DA  


  Nothing to do with technical aspects and it IS very competitive, only it haven't sold to the export market just yet.


Regards, PlG


Just yet? Well it' getting a bit late in the game for 4th Generation fighters unless you can offer feature complete product with the latest capabilities in the Rafale's price range. It doesn't. Statements to the contrary are not realistic. For instance, IT MATTERS that Rafale does not have an operational AESA. All US designs do. F-16, F-15, F/A-18E and F-35. That's just one example PlG.

-DA 

-DA 
 
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PierreLeGrand    Boy.   5/12/2009 6:43:05 PM
Here youstart to talk total MANURE.
 
Please go inform yourself, you have no clue what you're talking about.
 
From where i'm concerned your posts are not even worth reading.
 
Good night.
 
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DarthAmerica       5/12/2009 7:13:38 PM
Here youstart to talk total MANURE.

Please go inform yourself, you have no clue what you're talking about.

From where i'm concerned your posts are not even worth reading.


Good night.


Well if that's how you feel about it very well. But if I may. You are a bit new around here and in case you haven't noticed from others vitriol doesn't do much for you when you are trying to make a point and that assumes you can back yourself up which of course you can't if you are suggesting the Rafale is a feature complete product. It's fallen well short for lack of some requirement or other and schedules in EVERY chance it's had to demonstrate why it should be chosen. This isn't me, this is the customer. It usually goes something like, "Great Plane but....I don't want to wait until middle of next decade for AESA and then only after I provide the funding to assist in development. Again, that's one example. Another is the obvious choice by tier 1 nations of a true 5th Generation VLO multirole platform to integrate into their system. That's something you need to think about if you are Dassault and trying to sell a warplane in todays environment. 

You see, the F-35, which actually is VLO, can if necessary fight independent of some of the obligatory support sorties a Rafale would need to survive in denied airspace without taking unacceptable losses. It's cool to claim SPECTRA makes up the difference but the truth is, it doesn't. So with these two issues we have a platform that would best be described as near sighted and very obvious to a modern opponent. To operate like that you need the numbers to absorb the attrition you will face while trading BVR shots and eating SAMs. At 100 million a pop though, it starts to get a bit unbearable. Adding to this the logistical requirements are different from my primary allies during wartime so now I have the additional burden of logistics and interoperability to be concerned about. Ever read about the Tower of Babel? Well now if you are reading this objectively you can start to see that these issues DO MATTER and when given the option Rafales are brushed aside by F-35, F-teens, Gripens, Typhoons and even Migs and Flankers. That should tell you something. The Rafale has clearly and undeniably failed with respect to export potential. 
 
Or perhaps the Rafale is so stealthy in fact that just being from the same country prevents one from seeing it as is so as to actually address the shortcomings? It certainly has outfoxed the fanboys, budget cutters, program managers who's job is was to make sure SPECTRA and RBE2 were performance and cost competitive so I guess its very stealthy indeed!

What the Rafale has taught combat aviation is that just because you think the world is centered on your unique requirements does not make it so. I have said and will say again. I actually like the Rafale and think it is a true Eurofighter. Had it been funded properly and developed with the input of other great European powers. All of the money spent on Rafale and Eurofighter could have been pooled along with the talent and resources. At a minimum that would have challenged the Russians position with regard to platforms IMV and quite possibly could have exceeded the F-15 series in terms of multirole capability and matched the F/A-18E/F.

See, there now. I've managed to express myself without the use of scatological language and vitriol. Try it if you are so convinced that your points can stand on merit.
 

-DA 
 
 
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Bluewings12       5/12/2009 7:37:17 PM
Technically speaking , there is very little wrong with the Rafale . It just needs to be F3+ asap .
 
Now , let 's forget the numbers for a moment and just imagine that you 're a pilot . First and foremost , is the jet pleasant and easy to fly ? That is of the utmost importance , it is like when you try few cars before to buy one . The "X" car was ok , fast , nervous but it wasn 't for you , something you did not like . Car "Y" , well you quickly find out that you don 't like it (maybe for your wife?) . The "Z" car took you in as soon as you sat in it , you started the engine , 1st gear , 2nd gear and you knew it : it was the one !
We all know that you will be a better driver in this car than in the others and it is the same with a jet . Almost every foreign pilot or test pilot who flew the Rafale was impressed with the aircraft and the most things talked about are the excellence of the FBW , the smooth ride at all regimes , the responsiveness of the M-88s and the sensor fusion .
I am not inventing it , I already posted many debriefs from Pilots who flew the Rafale .
 
When the pilot quickly finds his marks because the jet has an excellent behavior on the road (sorry , in the air) , because the "ride" feels safe and carefree , because the aircraft is showing you everything you need to know using a very friendly man-machine interface , you suddently become a more efficient pilot because you have more brain power and "free will" left to fight : the aircraft is taking care of itself .
 
This is what I would call a 5th generation capability .
The way the different sensors on the Rafale are used to ease the pilot 's decisions and safety are unseen on any other 4th generation aircraft . The effect on the pilot to have a full 360deg bubble awareness in both EM and IR is enormous . You don 't spend your time anymore wandering if someone has seen you or has a lock on you , the aircraft is telling you about the threat before entering the danger zone with great accuracy (azimuth and range) and can even put the threat on screen for you by automatically slaving the long range TV cam . You look into the enemy 's eyes at 50km (joke but true) without him knowing . As a pilot , I would feel like I have the edge and I can decide what proper action I can take . The state of mind is what makes a soldier going beyond himself with assurance and belief .
I 've been long enough in the Forces to learn and experience the feeling . When you feel good , you fight good .
The Rafale has been designed with this very idea in mind : to free the pilot as much as possible .
It does its job , I can assure you .
What we French would like you to acknowledge is that Rafale is the best 4th generation aircraft around (nevermind the 4.5) . We 've been saying so for as long as I can remember (6 , 7 years ?) and more the time is passing , more it seems that we were right and more material we have to prove it to the readers .
I have tried to show you what a 5th generation cockpit looks like but you discarded it with dedain . This was not about "nice and big colorfull screens" but about the stuff running the show in the background , unfortunatly nobody "clicked" on what I was saying ...
No the rafale is not a VLO aircraft but it is a real LO jet when it needs to be and has been designed this way from day one . Being "LO" is not only about physical shape , RAM , tooth edges , IR shadowing , etc ... The Rafale has all of them but it is only one side of the LO capabilities . The other side is made of different things like knowing first that there is a threat so you can avoid it (you can 't be observed) , knowing what and where the threat is and acting accordingly (you can 't be observed) , precisely jam that radar and not the other six around leaving them wandering what is happening (you can 't be observed) , using the enemy 's EM emmisions to passively direct your weapons (you can 't be observed) , etc . You did not even switch the RBE2 on !
Are these capabilitie "compatible" with an average 4th generation Fighter ? I just ask ...
 
Cheers .
 

 
 
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Phaid       5/12/2009 7:47:31 PM
Under the SAME angle the compressor blades on the Rafale inlets wouldn't be visible at all.
 
They are not visible at all on the F/A-18E/F even at that angle.  The things you see in the Super Hornet photo are not fan blades.  The angled, radiating vanes are part of the radar blocking system (reference here since you appear to be unfamiliar).  The vanes reflect RF that would otherwise strike the fan blades and redirect it into the RAM in the curved inlets.
 
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DarthAmerica    To France...   5/12/2009 7:49:27 PM
Rafale looks like this to an Engineer...

 http://www.businessballs.com/images/treeswing/tree_swing_70s.jpeg" width="825" height="634" alt="" />
 

And to those who might have to fight in it, if used the way some here suggest by asserting it to be some sort of F-15/117 lite...
 

http://www.freefoto.com/images/9905/08/9905_08_4---Graveyard_web.jpg" width="600" height="400" alt="" />
 

 


-DA
 
 
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DarthAmerica       5/12/2009 7:57:36 PM
Here is what a LO Rafale looks like...http://www.militarypictures.info/d/42-3/FR_Rafale-9.jpg" width="640" height="426" alt="" />



 


-DA 
 
 
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Bluewings12       5/12/2009 8:45:37 PM
You are surprising me DA , did you loose it or what ???
It 's unusual coming from you ...
 
Cheers .
 
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DarthAmerica       5/12/2009 9:33:56 PM

You are surprising me DA , did you loose it or what ???

It 's unusual coming from you ...

 

Cheers .

Not at all. Just not going to play pretend and say that the Rafale is an LO aircraft or any of the other myths that get associated with the plane. Look at an evolved F-16 or F/A-18, and you will see the Rafales future. Beyond that, France needs a new design if it hopes to remain competitive against F-35, PAK-FA. If not, France will have to adjust its tactics based on the limitations of pre 5th Gen aircraft. Thats why I posted pictures of the SCALP. Such weapons allow Rafale to strike targets that would otherwise be too dangerous to approach. The graveyard is the result of usinf the Rafale the way a 5th Gen fighter is used.

You guys need to be objective. You can like a platform and at the same time acknowledge its limitations.

-DA 
 
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VelocityVector       5/12/2009 9:47:51 PM

PlG's "Illustrations" evince something I hadn't focused on before but have come to appreciate regarding the French approach toward concealing engine fan blades.  Specifically the inelegant "chimney flue" structure in the Rafale inlets appears to be rather robust and therefore superior in terms of resilience against FOD as compared with its delicate F18 counterpart.  Which is an attribute that you want if your profile involves lo flight to exploit the creases and terrain.  I hadn't really looked at it this way until now; it represents pretty good thinking IMHO and kills two birds with one stone so-to-speak.  Not bad.  0.02

v^2

 
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