Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins. The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs. The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start. Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach. Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays. Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet. Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutti
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57   NEXT
Hamilcar    It wasn   4/15/2010 1:43:22 AM
 
Quote    Reply

Hamilcar    It wasn't addressed to you, Rufus    4/15/2010 1:54:16 AM
Rafale.....airbrakes...MK.
 
What the **** do you think is going on?
 
He knew what I was about.
 
What does the  ESSM, a pilot who flew SR-71s, and India's AWACS have to do with each other?
 
Raytheon's missile works, and the other two (like the Rafale) don't^1....(joke).
 
Lighten up. If you are confused, ask.
 
H.
   
^1 One is retired and DRDO has trouble with its AWACs
 
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       4/15/2010 4:17:32 AM
well, taking a different tack, instead of "what's wrong" how about what if? (subtle difference0

eg look at what the sth africans did with the mirage


would it be possible to add a more powerful radar system to the Rafale a-la the mod principles on the cheetah.

or there is the other hot rodding mod of the re-engine on their F1's


replacing the SNECMA with a western standards rebuilt Klimov instead of the SNECMA M88 might have been a cute mod. 

or there is the Kfir using a J79-GE-17 upgrade - what members of the J79 family could have been used to do an engine upgrade? (the Mirages were touted for the M88's so there must be a dimensional fit twixt J79's and the M88's)

eg J79-GE-J1E with 18,750lbf thrust as opposed to M88 17,000lbf (AB for both) 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

MK       4/15/2010 5:34:29 AM
@Hamilcar,
and what does the FoxThree vol.4 issue proves? Oh nothing which supports your assertions, as usual and as Rufus said your sources rarely support anything you claim and it is interesting to watch how great your fantasy is that you can make up so much crap out of nothing. 
And air brake? The Rafale has none, fact period!
 
@GF,
 A westernised RD-33? Makes not even the slightest sense. The RD-33 is about 70 cm longer. The weight difference isn't that big as isn't the inlet diameter, but the engine as way to long.

 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       4/15/2010 6:20:52 AM
@GF, A westernised RD-33? Makes not even the slightest sense. The RD-33 is about 70 cm longer. The weight difference isn't that big as isn't the inlet diameter, but the engine as way to long.
 
you think some of the other stuff in here makes sense? :)
 
I was basing it on the fact that the SAAF wanted the M88 for their Mirages but had to settle for the Klimov.  The israelis didn't want the M88 but did manage to shovel in a J97.  There must be a relatively close fit if both engines were regarded as suitable engineering fits ....

besides, 70cm is a bit of overhang at the other end if you shroud the stovepipe... :) 
 







 
Quote    Reply

Hamilcar    Reply to MK.   4/15/2010 10:32:34 AM
Shrug. 


 
I can be wrong, but so are you.
 
Deleted, but the originals carried them.

Now as for the rest of your assertions, about the electronics and the missiles the engines and the other JUNK in that aircraft, I'm sure.
 
H.
 

 
Quote    Reply

MK    @Hamilcar   4/15/2010 1:21:17 PM
Could you do me a favour and don't post bits and pieces of your mind puzzles? The last post tells me nothing at all and I don't know what you intended to prove with your last link either. Of course I can be wrong too and I don't pretend to be the all knowledgeable super expert, but that doesn't change the fact that your opinion about the Rafale is largely based on your anti french attitude and the resulting predejuces and that's it. You call everything junk on this aircraft post dubious links which don't even support your points to the slightest degree and claim you "know". So far you have proven nothing with regards to the Rafale except that you hate it because it is french and your unmatched level of ignorance and fantasy to create stories out of articles which tell everything, but not the stories you spin up.
 
Quote    Reply

Das Kardinal       4/15/2010 1:21:33 PM

So how would I "fix" the Rafale?  I wouldn't change much on the plane, but I would have to go back in time and get it on the market in the early 90s.  With export sales driving volume prices would go down, manufacturing quality would improve, and more upgrade money would be available... this would lead to more export sales...  and so forth.


Totally agree with you here. The political short-sightedness of the 90s (peace dividends ! ha !) probably cost the Rafale an early success on the export market. Had development not been delayed back then, it would have been a competitive platform with few, if any competitors in its class (well, late-block F-16s maybe, but it's still a legacy platform). Of course, technology being what it is, a "full" early Rafale wouldn't have the current refinements (AESA in the 90s ? no way), but for the time it could have been cutting-edge, with room and easier funding for later upgrades.
Ah well, at least it has been catching up lately, but it's too late for "easy" sells with competitors that are very good too, cheaper and/or better supported.
 
Quote    Reply

Das Kardinal       4/15/2010 1:26:08 PM

Could you do me a favour and don't post bits and pieces of your mind puzzles? The last post tells me nothing at all and I don't know what you intended to prove with your last link either. Of course I can be wrong too and I don't pretend to be the all knowledgeable super expert, but that doesn't change the fact that your opinion about the Rafale is largely based on your anti french attitude and the resulting predejuces and that's it. You call everything junk on this aircraft post dubious links which don't even support your points to the slightest degree and claim you "know". So far you have proven nothing with regards to the Rafale except that you hate it because it is french and your unmatched level of ignorance and fantasy to create stories out of articles which tell everything, but not the stories you spin up.

I don't think Hamilcar's "anti-French", he's praised some French hardware before but he clearly has something against Dassault and Thales :-)
 
Quote    Reply

MK       4/15/2010 1:43:13 PM

I don't think Hamilcar's "anti-French", he's praised some French hardware before but he clearly has something against Dassault and Thales :-)

Haven't read something like that from him, but I certainly haven't read every single post of him or other users here for that matter. At least as long as I'm posting here, though it's not that long I have never seen any positive comment from him about anything french. Just endless bashing and great anti claims with no evidence, but countless links not supporting his assertions and countless self made stories to "support" his point. A very lame approach which leaves a very trollish taste, not unlike the uncritical, overhyped pro Rafale trolling besides certain former members. Posts not related to french hardware are often good and I would wish that he kept this level when talking about french hardware as well. Not that I'm overly concerned about french stuff, but I prefer to discuss such issues on factual grounds, with reasonable and supportable comments/arguments and a sense of objectiveness.
 
Quote    Reply



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics