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Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins. The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs. The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start. Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach. Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays. Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet. Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutti
 
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french stratege       5/10/2009 1:29:55 PM
  Traditional Dassault customers are out of Rafale selling envelop, as simple as that.

No Pierre Legrand.Absolutely false.
Reasons are :
What France is willing to provide
Wait and see according to F35 and Pakfa roadmaps and IOC
Our potential customer base which is shrinking
Rafale roadmap delays
Euro vs $ exchange rate
 
 
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Phaid       5/10/2009 2:13:39 PM
Oh look, Sampaix is here.  Have fun with the truffle fights everyone.
 
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Spiky       5/10/2009 2:40:40 PM
After reading all these posts and others from before, if I was India, I definitely go with the Superhornet. That is what I am betting they will do.
 
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PierreLeGrand       5/10/2009 2:51:51 PM

  Traditional Dassault customers are out of Rafale selling envelop, as simple as that.



No Pierre Legrand.Absolutely false.

Reasons are :


What France is willing to provide

Wait and see according to F35 and Pakfa roadmaps and IOC

Our potential customer base which is shrinking

Rafale roadmap delays

Euro vs $ exchange rate


 


 All of which results exactly in what i was saying about it.
 
"Wait and see according to F35 and Pakfa roadmaps and IOC"
 
  Don't expect much in terms of increased performances from F-35.
 
  Design results from requierements and gives you performances, and F-35 is not immune to the laws of physics and aerodynamic, i dont see its performances increasing with thrust the same way it will for a delta-canard on these ground only.
 
  Accoding to the USAF requierements for the F-22, all what is missing with the F-35 was part of what makes the Raptor superiority in A2A.
 
  With clear performances deficits the equation resumes to stealth vs counter stealth technologies, and as far as we know,
F-35 level of stealth is also lower than that of F-22, not to mention its IR signature with the hotest running engine in the word and no IR reduction feature to minimise it.
 
  It have been very fashionable lately to bash up its detractors but no one came up with anything remotly more credible than commercials with suddently different design goals (Like the famous more maneuvrable than F-16 thing)...
 
  With the event of Thales and SNECMA recent technologic developements, the balance is FAR from being in F-35 favour, first by design, then by use of technologies which we already know negates a good part of EM VLO at increasingly longer range and in more adverse MTO conditions.
 
  Some might well not believe it but long-range/all-weather IR technologies are just around the corner.
 
   So i'll be waiting as you suggest, patiently for the 90 kN M88 and the next generation of Optical and IR sensors, including multi-wavelength IR and pixel powered detection for both IRST and Near-IR cameras...
 
   If you wish to inform yourself on the subject there are some neat articles on the DGA website...
 
 
"Quote: Phaid 
Oh look, Sampaix is here.  Have fun with the truffle fights everyone"
 
   There is something for certain, you dont deserve as much attention as you seek, any proper rely to my propos?
 
  That will be all.
 
  Regards, PlG

 
 
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gf0012-aust       5/10/2009 7:14:17 PM

gf0012-aust:
AIM-9L?
a 1985 pdf?
not exactly stellar contemp references. 
You find better references as for IR AAMs (i might get the L wrong it might well be the M whatever equiped the USN F-18s and Spanich Navy Matadors in 2002) and references in terms of what I wrote.

 For the time being i can add to the agravation with more recent documents on all tackled subject, no problem.

 Now a question, what are YOUR refefrences to counter these?
Regards. PlG

ah yes.  more noise.  I have some very basic principles at work here.
when France sells one Rafale to any other country, let alone a 3rd world non peer african or arabic player (and its been unable to convince 1st and 2nd tier countries to buy it) - then I'll be impressed with the klingon like capabilities that fan boys like you wax lyrical on.
for such an uber plane its not convincing anyone else that its worth the (sometimes subsidised money, and often with other technology carrots to try and sway the deal)  - even the french are cutting back on production cycles.  You do realise that the reduction in build rates will make it even more expensive, unless the french govt decides to meet the gap?
you can sit here and tell stories as much as you like, but 9 airforces to date have walked on by.  you need to start convincing your own government before you come in here trying to wage commercial and pseudo technical war on the internet.
 

 
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french stratege       5/10/2009 7:36:46 PM
Let see in the future gf0012
You are right that a third rate air force means few for quality
Let see if Switzerland or Brasil retain it.Or UAE, since UAE order also US planes like F16E.
I'm not a fan boy.
I sustain Rafale for the exact same reason you defended Australian subs.
At the end we designed and built Rafale for ourselves first.It will be the backbone of our airforce and until now, French air force is not a second rate one.
At least some people here may have understood what is the concept behind Rafale and that its survivability concept is a mile ahead versus previous génération like M2000 or F16.
 
 
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french stratege       5/10/2009 7:46:48 PM
BTW Gf00012, we are not cutting production cycle even our armed forces would like to lower a little annual numbers to be delivered (if some export contracts are won since production rate has to say at least at current level), but not for quality reasons but to increase funding  on more urgent programs like helicopteres or air transport.
 
180 Rafales have been ordered until F3+standard (AESA and OSF 2).
And a post F3 is on the drawing board.
 
I should remember that F35 is not an operational plane but IOC is for 2011 (same year of Rafale F3+). 
While F35 is a very nice and advanced plane I doubt of its superiority over Rafale in air combat since F35 trade off in not so AA oriented.
 
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DarthAmerica       5/10/2009 7:50:30 PM

Let see in the future gf0012

You are right that a third rate air force means few for quality

Let see if Switzerland or Brasil retain it.Or UAE, since UAE order also US planes like F16E.

I'm not a fan boy.

I sustain Rafale for the exact same reason you defended Australian subs.

At the end we designed and built Rafale for ourselves first.It will be the backbone of our airforce and until now, French air force is not a second rate one.

At least some people here may have understood what is the concept behind Rafale and that its survivability concept is a mile ahead versus previous génération like M2000 or F16.

 
FS, 

Are you not paying attention to the things first rate air forces do with late model F-16s? The Rafale certainly takes steps to survive on a modern battlefield but none of them are new.  Heck look at the F-111 or B-1B. Both make extensive use of EW and low altitude flight. Every F-teen has some degree of RCS control measures now. All modern 4th Gens use standoff weapons too. There is nothing miles ahead about the Rafale adopting these well established techniques.

-DA
 
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DarthAmerica       5/10/2009 8:00:06 PM

While F35 is a very nice and advanced plane I doubt of its superiority over Rafale in air combat since F35 trade off in not so AA oriented.


Why would you doubt that? An F-35 will be more likely to detect its targets before Rafale. An F-35 would be more likely to evade detection as well. The F-35's avionics are generations ahead and include EA options the Rafale cannot have. F-35's will have higher sortie rates and in WVR combat bring HMS to the fight. F-35 also has DAS which gives 360 degree EO targeting capability. FS you cannot make the Rafale more than it is out of national pride. The only thing the Rafale has as an advantage is that the top speed is marginally higher on paper. By every other measure the F-35 meets or drastically exceeds the Rafale in air to air combat.

The Rafale is a nice plane but its hard to get Frenchmen to discuss it objectively. It's like you guys are always padding the data just a bit.

-DA 
 
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Bluewings12       5/10/2009 8:24:26 PM
Herald :
""Nothing as long as you realize that it is a pedestrian bomb truck. (Think of a modernized Jaguar) It works fine for the role as the EU bombing plane of a mix that has Typhoon as the air superiority type.""
 
FALSE . The Rafale a "pedestrian bomber" ? Lol ! You know nothing and you should stay away once for all .You get an A+ for bashing and lying and a D- for not bringing facts and holding the truth . Bye . 
 
""The RBE2 radar leaks "Shoot me" sidelobe radio noise.""
 
FALSE . The PESA RBE2 sidelobes are very small and can 't be targeted easily , in fact the radar has never been jammed yet . The new AESA RBE2 is said to be even more jamming resistant , see the pdf I posted in a different thread . Again you talk without knowing ...
 
""The MICA missile fails totally as a dual use missile because the designers bungled the RH seeker and made the rocket too fat and massive for a decent IR missile.""
 
FALSE . The Mica is one of the deadliest missile around in between 400m and 80km . It has never failed in testing , it has archived an 180deg kill and its seekers (IR and EM) are highly resistant to jamming .
 
""Poor construction finish of the plane. We built WW II aircraft with a better surface finish and thus less spikey radar return points!""
 
FALSE . Again you bash freely and you know it , that 's very poor but coming from you it is obviously the best you can do . I have tried to educate you long enough with carefully choosen words and pdfs but you don 't get it . Die as an idiot if it is your will .
 
""Then there is the OBSOLETE 1980 avionocs design architecture..""
 
Pfff ... The USA have nothing flying more advanced than the Rafale bare the F-22 .
 
It is getting a wee bit tiring to repeat countless times the same things simply because some posters are right off their shoes .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
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