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Subject: What is wrong with the Rafale?
Rufus    5/9/2009 10:16:10 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins. The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs. The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start. Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach. Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays. Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet. Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutti
 
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Bluewings12       5/14/2009 7:40:48 PM
Herald :
""(me) The French only have themselves to blame but hey , we 're not sluts and thieves .
 You're right, not sluts and thieves -- just incompetent at business.""
 
Thank you , I take it as a compliment . The rest of your post clearly shows that you do not want to talk about the USA deal to Marocco ...
 
Cheers .
 
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sentinel28a       5/14/2009 7:50:36 PM
I'm late to the game here (sorry, vacations don't take themselves!), but at first, I was going to praise BW for his very frank admittance on page 1 of this thread of the Rafale's shortcomings.  That is, until I read his latest "The Rafale's not selling because the evil Americans are keeping us from selling it!"
 
Please, ninja.
 
Dassault had a winner with its Mirage series, and the Mirage III/5 came out during a time when the market was also saturated with quality American products like the A-4 and F-4 and pretty decent Russian stuff too, like the MiG-21.  But Mirage III/5s sold like hotcakes.  It wasn't even that great of an aircraft--the Mirage needed long runways and suffered from engine problems; the Mirage 5 didn't even have a radar!  But they sold, because despite its drawbacks, the Mirage was a solid, robust design.  True, some nations bought it because the US wouldn't sell to them and they didn't want the strings attached that came with a Russian sale.  And there's no reason the Rafale can't do the same, because there's plenty of nations out there who don't want to buy second-hand F-16s or barely serviceable MiGs. 
 
But it's not doing it, and not because the eeeeevil Americans are weaving magic spells to keep nations from buying Rafales.  The Rafale isn't selling because it's too expensive, it's not capable enough, or there's something else wrong with the aircraft.  I may not wholly agree with Rufus on everything he posted, but when the only person you can sell to is Qaddafi the Mad, you've got problems.
 
Morocco should have bought the Rafale: they've always enjoyed close ties to France.  So has Egypt, so has India.  But they're not biting.  That should tell Dassault that either they've blown it on the Rafale's PR or they've blown it with the design.
 
I don't know.  But I do know that Rufus makes a valid point: the Rafale was designed to replace 30-year old designs like the F-8FN, the Super Etendard, and the Jaguar.  It's done all those and done it well.  The problem is that not too many nations ever flew those three designs.  Could this be a case of France trying to push the Rafale into a role it's not suited for?
 
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Herald12345    Second bolo in a row.   5/14/2009 7:51:02 PM

Herald :

""(me) The French only have themselves to blame but hey , we 're not sluts and thieves .
 You're right, not sluts and thieves -- just incompetent at business.""

 

Thank you , I take it as a compliment . The rest of your post clearly shows that you do not want to talk about the USA deal to Marocco ...


 

Cheers .



That, again, is Phaid; not ME. 

Are you having trouble keeping names straight? 

Shrug. If the RAF wants an AESA this year for TYPHOON, all they have to do is contact Hughes or better  RAYTHEON and fly them over for backfit. Ours work.

They don't need them yet.. CAPTOR works just fine and CAESAR will be there when they need it.   
 
Herald
 
 
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DarthAmerica       5/14/2009 7:56:39 PM
BW,

You should just probably accept that the Rafale is a failed program with regard to exports and the only blame lies with it being too French, too late and too much.

-DA 
 
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Bluewings12       5/14/2009 8:02:04 PM
Herald (or is it Phaid ? lol)
 
""That, again, is Phaid; not ME. 
Are you having trouble keeping names straight? ""
 
Yes I do , obviously lol ! Don 't ask me why , I don 't bloody know ...
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
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Bluewings12       5/14/2009 8:12:41 PM
DA :
""You should just probably accept that the Rafale is a failed program with regard to exports and the only blame lies with it being too French, too late and too much.""
 
Well ... I can 't accept that because it is not the truth . I can understand the "too French , too late , too much" the way you see it  (while I disagree) but the reason why the Rafale failed and missed around 300 sales has already been explained .
Don 't defend a ghost DA or you 'll endorse its curse .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       5/14/2009 8:41:26 PM
As it is now , the Rafale is perfectly fitting the FAF and the MN and could also fit any other airforce with a territory much bigger than France , it has the legs .

It is now in its F3 version and in 3 years time , the Rafale program will be completed . Typhoon and Gripen are slowly getting multi-role and are flying real A2A CAPs . F-35 is still a prototype with some problems .
 
Rafale has been operational for over 6 years , the jet has participated at real war operations for over 3 years , it has successfully demonstrated its ability to fight in various missions and meetings and more importantly , the French Rafale Drivers are at least 5 to 8 years ahead of any Typhoon , Gripen , F-35 driver in operational terms , to say the least . Think about it Gentlemen and appreciate the difference ...
 
Cheers .
 
 
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Bluewings12       5/14/2009 8:53:20 PM
And some say that the Eurofighter Typhoon was a better bet for Europe and Dassault was wrong to bug out ...
Pfff ...
 
Cheers .
 
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sentinel28a       5/14/2009 10:57:08 PM
I appreciate the fact that the Rafale needed a 30 year old Super Etendard to lase its targets for it.
 
I also appreciate the fact that the Typhoon, the Gripen, and the F-35 have a hell of a lot more export sales than the Rafale does.
 
 
 
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PierreLeGrand       5/15/2009 6:01:51 AM

I appreciate the fact that the Rafale needed a 30 year old Super Etendard to lase its targets for it.

 

I also appreciate the fact that the Typhoon, the Gripen, and the F-35 have a hell of a lot more export sales than the Rafale does.

 

 


Typhoon erxpeort sales are FAR from being a hell of a lot, not even on par with that of the Mirage 2000, as for basing the qualities of the airfraft on experot sales aloen it is forgeting a simple FACT.
In ALL competitions where Rafale was pitted against Typhoon, Typhoon was the trechnical looser.
 
Regards, PLG
 
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