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Subject: Rafale Thread
Softwar    3/9/2009 9:47:25 AM
Started with hope that BW will limit his comments here instead of in every other Fighter thread. I'll start off with: 1 - no export sales 2 - no laser designator 3 - no AESA 4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter
 
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MK       5/13/2010 6:52:58 PM
However, he heavily emphasized the performance of the french system in the field of arms data fusion, from his point of view, the main reason of the superiority obtained. Instead of each sensor to display its studs (aircraft detected) on a specific screen, forcing the Typhoon pilot to operate an intellectual gymnastics 
 
This part is obvious nonsense.
 
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Das Kardinal       5/14/2010 2:47:54 AM
And the last part.


Paths for a future F4 standard 
DSI May 2010



In 2019 or 2020 should start deliveries for tranche 5 Rafale, to be ordered late 2015. Already, the various stakeholders of the program are working to trace the contours of the standard - F4 - of these weapons systems. The PEA for exploring paths for capacitive improvements have started last fall. The aim is to commission a review of all areas, to examine every major system or equipment and try to evaluate which technology advances are expected to be at the rendez vous and those which couldn't be. Or those for whom it will be be possible to justify and obtain budgetary credits and those for whom it will not be possible! This explains the contents of this future F4 standard is still no freezed. However, the operationals are almost already expressing the considerable importance to dispose of a viewfinder-HMD. In A2A, it would allow one rafale to launch its MICA on a hostile aircraft without having to roll up in a close dogfight, which requires to be rid of its load of bombs. So to be able to continue its A2G original mission.

Essential viewfinder-HMD.

Beyond, the airmen consider that the viewfinder-HMD would provide an added value in the field of air-ground support, allowing to design to the weapon system, with the cross of the HMD, a ground target which would be in lateral or rear area and not necessarily, as it is the case today, in the front line sector of the aircraft. Or to design, via the Link-16, the ground target to a team member taking over. Thales evoked the possibility of an efficient equipment for the Rafale coming from the current Tiger HMD . And it seems quite clear that such equipment is much anticipated by potential export customers of the Rafale.

In the A2G field , operationals intend to have a laser designation pods even more efficient than the Damocles just arrived today in the qualification phase. They want the capacity to determine from a 6000 m altitude if the individual located on the ground is armed or not. As for weapons, they evoke missille with double capacity air-ground and air-air. And for the AASM bombs, they emphasize the development, for the 250 kg bomb, of laser guidance in addition to the current route by GPS and inertial hybridized IR sensor, but also on the achievement for the 250 kg body , of modular charges adapted to various types of employment and target, for example to focus on the effects of detonation and reduce collateral damage. The operationals do not want the AASM 125 kg proposed by Sagem. However an AASM 1000 kg with the ability to penetrate bunkers and reinforced buildings is favorably mentioned.

The air-ground sensors of the weapon system should also provide very high definition modes to improve the tracking of ground target (GMTI GMTT modes for the radar) with more complex interweaving of air-ground and air- air modes (monitoring of aerial threats in various areas while providing a ground tracking function). In the A2A field, one will have to start thinking about the studies for a MICA successor and to improve a little more the capabilities for identification of non-cooperative target (NCTR). In the matter of data links, including the Link-16, one will have to make greater use of satellite links. And the sea serpent of steering nozzle for the M88 is discussed again. It is also question of developing a stealth kit. Work will be launched to reduce the RCS by modifying the coating of the cans under the Rafale.

INCAS [Insert New Additional Capacity for SPECTRA] for SPECTRA 5T.

Already, the authorities and industrials are preparing evolutions for SPECTRA , to allow it to remain very effective when will start coming the tranche 5 Rafale. The PEA INCAS (Insert New Additional Capacity for SPECTRA), notified last September by the DGA to Thales Airborne Systems and MBDA, is indeed preparing SPECTRA 5T. The real challenge, according to Thales engineers, is to think, not only about the original equipment on board the new tranche 5 Rafale, but also about the retrofit in the framework of a prospective site to put this future new standard for the rest of the fleet including the first Rafale delivered.

An ambition much more delicate than it seems at first glance, because it need to evo
 
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Phaid       5/15/2010 7:09:42 AM
Oh boy, someday a F5T version of Spectra with all-digital GaN reveivers and steerable decoys ("far superior to towed decoys") will make Spectra come close to the hype it's been receiving from French fanboys for the last 10 years.
 
At least it's a change from the constant trotting out of Lt. Col. Fabrique Groscaca and his delusions of adequacy vs the F-22.
 
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Phaid       5/15/2010 8:00:28 AM
Hmm, I missed this before:
 
Especially since the six F-22 Raptor deployed there by the 27th FW Langley FS/1st proved incapable of giving the beating promised to the Rafale. Of the six dofights - gun limited - which pitted the two types of aircraft in the Emirians skies in late 2009, only two saw the virtual destruction of a Rafale.
 
So now Groscaca has changed his story, from one Rafale being killed by F-22s in guns-only WVR, to two.  Oh, the poor, wallowing, fat, easy to see, non-maneuverable F-22s.  LOL.
 

 
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Rufus       5/15/2010 9:09:30 AM
Guns only dogfights... in other words the next best thing to a complete waste of time and jet fuel.
 
As usual the Rafale offers a great roadmap with extremely dubious prospects of actual funding or follow through.
 
 
 
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earlm       5/15/2010 9:54:34 AM

Guns only dogfights... in other words the next best thing to a complete waste of time and jet fuel.

 

As usual the Rafale offers a great roadmap with extremely dubious prospects of actual funding or follow through.


 

 



But what if?
 
Stealth becomes so good that NO plane can detect any other and the missiles can't see the planes and they HAVE to fight with guns?  Huh?  What about that?  Oh you stupid Americans and your reliance on technology!  Can't you see that the European approach with inferior technology is actually BETTER?  If you can't you're a right wing bible thumping racist Tea Partier!
 
Let's just let the thread die.  I think we've established the facts on Rafale.  A more interesting discussion would contrast the Rafale news release with the latest going on with the Super Hornet which already has a non-Lazarus thread.
 
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Das Kardinal       5/17/2010 3:38:36 AM




Guns only dogfights... in other words the next best thing to a complete waste of time and jet fuel.


Pilots can't have some fun ? And it's not about the F-22. Nobody in the FAF is seriously taking those results as "proof" that Rafale can match the F-22 in "true" aerial combat. But I guess merely focusing on a marginal, and indeed irrelevant (since both planes are very unlikely to ever fight a war in opposite sides) part allows you to ignore all the rest, which is rather more relevant to the operators.
 



As usual the Rafale offers a great roadmap with extremely dubious prospects of actual funding or follow through.


Of course "as usual" you won't let what's happening IRL impinge on your own perception. You were already saying the same thing in 2006 when the Rafales was early F2 variant and people were talking about the F3. "Not gonna happen, no funding, Rafale is an orphan, the French won't pay to upgrade it, and it will never happen in our lifetime...". Now we're in 2010 and the F3 is flying with the planned capabilities. Development of F4/roadmap tech is actually funded and worked on, but it doesn't exist in your eyes. Gah.



 



 








But what if?

 

Stealth becomes so good that NO plane can detect any other and the missiles can't see the planes and they HAVE to fight with guns?  Huh?  What about that?  Oh you stupid Americans and your reliance on technology!  Can't you see that the European approach with inferior technology is actually BETTER?  If you can't you're a right wing bible thumping racist Tea Partier!

 

Let's just let the thread die.  I think we've established the facts on Rafale.  A more interesting discussion would contrast the Rafale news release with the latest going on with the Super Hornet which already has a non-Lazarus thread.


Indeed, when I see that kind of childish reactions (such as "Groscaca" seriously Phaid... that's lame) I'm rather tempted to stop bothering with bringing any further info when it becomes available. 
Always the same crap. You were blasting FS and BW but apparently even with them in exile you can't change your usual behavior when it comes to this plane. 
Oh, and the " think we've established the facts on Rafale"  part exemplifies this attitude. You've built this picture in your heads and no amount of new data will make it change. "Let's just let the thread die." indeed, let's not be bothered by anything new that goes against the established popular wisdom ! By God, let's not allow the far-flung notion that current generation Rafales have useful and in some case, unique operational abilities ever reach and pollute our minds !

 
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Brad Piff       5/17/2010 4:43:12 AM
I'm quite impressed with the people at dassault who has been working on this project. Seems to be a quite versatile airplane, and they've only surpased their budgets with 4,4 % so far. I believe that is rather impressive indeed, and the rafale seems to be able to do what france is asking of it to do. And when it comes to export, they never should have closed the Mirage 2000 lines. The 2000-9 could have been able to take som girpen orders...
 
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Hamilcar    GENERAL REPLY   5/17/2010 4:57:46 AM










Guns only dogfights... in other words the next best thing to a complete waste of time and jet fuel.





Pilots can't have some fun ? And it's not about the F-22. Nobody in the FAF is seriously taking those results as "proof" that Rafale can match the F-22 in "true" aerial combat. But I guess merely focusing on a marginal, and indeed irrelevant (since both planes are very unlikely to ever fight a war in opposite sides) part allows you to ignore all the rest, which is rather more relevant to the operators.

 







As usual the Rafale offers a great roadmap with extremely dubious prospects of actual funding or follow through.





Of course "as usual" you won't let what's happening IRL impinge on your own perception. You were already saying the same thing in 2006 when the Rafales was early F2 variant and people were talking about the F3. "Not gonna happen, no funding, Rafale is an orphan, the French won't pay to upgrade it, and it will never happen in our lifetime...". Now we're in 2010 and the F3 is flying with the planned capabilities. Development of F4/roadmap tech is actually funded and worked on, but it doesn't exist in your eyes. Gah.







 







 


















But what if?



 



Stealth becomes so good that NO plane can detect any other and the missiles can't see the planes and they HAVE to fight with guns?  Huh?  What about that?  Oh you stupid Americans and your reliance on technology!  Can't you see that the European approach with inferior technology is actually BETTER?  If you can't you're a right wing bible thumping racist Tea Partier!



 



Let's just let the thread die.  I think we've established the facts on Rafale.  A more interesting discussion would contrast the Rafale news release with the latest going on with the Super Hornet which already has a non-Lazarus thread.






Indeed, when I see that kind of childish reactions (such as "Groscaca" seriously Phaid... that's lame) I'm rather tempted to stop bothering with bringing any further info when it becomes available. 

Always the same crap. You were blasting FS and BW but apparently even with them in exile you can't change your usual behavior when it comes to this plane. 

Oh, and the " think we've established the facts on Rafale"  part exemplifies this attitude. You've built this picture in your heads and no amount of new data will make it change. "Let's just let the thread die." indeed, let's not be bothered by anything new that goes against the established popular wisdom ! By God, let's not allow the far-flung notion that current generation Rafales have useful and in some case, unique operational abilities ever reach and pollute our minds !



1. Above Mach 1 in a pass through attack or most attacks, guns and eyeballs are useless. Speed and acceleratiuon is a viable defense.
 
2. That means speed of light sensors and missiles. Optical recognition software and infrared and UV detectors become even more important. Those freqs are far harder to scatter and mask than microwaves.  
 
The Mig 21 started life as a very mediocre Mikoyan day fighter target defense interceptor. It improved quite a bit over time. Better avionics, a better engine, revised pilot training...now some of the late model Israeli reworked Romanian versions are still quite deadly.  

The Squall is a pedestrian bomb truck. As introduced it was a badly botched one. I expect the very angry French government prods <
 
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Das Kardinal       5/17/2010 6:00:00 AM
1. Above Mach 1 in a pass through attack or most attacks, guns and eyeballs are useless. Speed and acceleratiuon is a viable defense.
...Guns only dogfight is basically pilots having fun. Yes, it's not very relevant for actual operations, we all agree on that, I think. It gives an idea of the platform's maneuverability, but that 's not the prime factor in aerial combat anymore.
 

2. That means speed of light sensors and missiles. Optical recognition software and infrared and UV detectors become even more important. Those freqs are far harder to scatter and mask than microwaves.  
Huh, Not sure which point you're addressing here...
 

The Mig 21 started life as a very mediocre Mikoyan day fighter target defense interceptor. It improved quite a bit over time. Better avionics, a better engine, revised pilot training...now some of the late model Israeli reworked Romanian versions are still quite deadly.  





The Squall is a pedestrian bomb truck. As introduced it was a badly botched one. I expect the very angry French government prods the thieves at Dassault to fix it. So these glowing upgrade paths Dassault now promises had better damn well actually appear as concrete results, as they did at Mikoyan for the Mig 21, for exactly the same identical political reasons

 

H.


The initial version was probably botched, yes. Although the LF1 only had to be better than the Crusaders it replaced (that and be less susceptible to breaking apart due to old age !). Not sure against whom I should be angry - from the official Parliament reports the Rafale program was kept in a rather tight leash financially.  OTOH, the decade of next-to-no progress was due to political choice (choosing not to spend money on new military hardware). I'd suspect the responsabilities to be shared around. Anyway, that's the past. I'm glad development has picked up in the past years. Wasn't too soon.
So far the Rafale is now a pedestrian bomb truck that can destroy 6 targets in a 50km radius while although shooting down enemy planes. Or launch nuclear cruise missiles. Or ASh missiles. Or do strategic and tactical recon. Or match a fighter that used to be viewed as massively superior in A2A (no, I'm not talking about the Raptor). That, also operating from a carrier. And helping save soldier lives on the ground.
All that, while also helping keep an autonomous industrial capability for designing and building military planes.
IMHO, it may not be worthy of a long string of superlatives, but it's quite good enough.
 
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