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Subject: Rafale Thread
Softwar    3/9/2009 9:47:25 AM
Started with hope that BW will limit his comments here instead of in every other Fighter thread. I'll start off with: 1 - no export sales 2 - no laser designator 3 - no AESA 4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter
 
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Bluewings12       6/16/2009 11:05:51 PM
Sentinel :
""Normally I can put down your crappy attitude towards Gallic patriotism, which is fine.  But that post really crossed the line.  If I was Sysops, you'd think a Rafale had fallen on you.""
 
Sentinel , without the intervention of Breaka , Beazz would have carry on with his bad faith attitude .
Beazz perfectly understood what I meant , he just played the "bash" game .
So , I used irony . Am I to blame ?
 
Cheers .
 
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sentinel28a       6/17/2009 2:57:26 AM
So instead of refuting Beazz's words, you call him useless and imply he can't speak English.  That's the way to win friends and influence people.
 
 
 
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Beazz       6/17/2009 11:12:55 AM

Sentinel :


""Normally I can put down your crappy attitude towards Gallic patriotism, which is fine.  But that post really crossed the line.  If I was Sysops, you'd think a Rafale had fallen on you.""

 

Sentinel , without the intervention of Breaka , Beazz would have carry on with his bad faith attitude .

Beazz perfectly understood what I meant , he just played the "bash" game .


So , I used irony . Am I to blame ?

 

Cheers .




BW,
What you just don't seem to get, is I, nor anyone else needs to play the *bash game* as you call it when it comes to the Rafail. The Rafail takes care of that quiet well on it's own ;-) So please, by all means, show me some official documentation that supports your claim as to why the Rafail is required to have new engines in order for the UAE to even *consider* buying it? Also explain to me in plain simple english (since I am obviously slow and have a hard time speaking it) why it is that it seems anyone who might consider the Rafail and owns any other French type a/c requires France to *buy* back the old planes? Why is it just France that has to buy back all it's used a/c just to even be considered for a new a/c sale? That doesn't strike you as just a little bit odd?
 
Beazz 
 
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Bluewings12       6/17/2009 11:04:56 PM
So Beazz , you are not bashing ?
 
-1) It is Rafale , not Rafail (Ra-fail)
Using such a nickname is telling .
 
-2)""What you just don't seem to get, is I, nor anyone else needs to play the *bash game* as you call it when it comes to the Rafail""
This is free bashing and without providing anything to back up your claim . How do you want and expect posters to take you seriously ?
 
-3)""The Rafail takes care of that quiet well on it's own ;-)""
Same again .
In fact , you are a bit like usajoe  , a stars&Stripes clown . I can understand that you do not know very well the Rafale but you don 't need to bash the jet just for the sake of it . At least , try to provide a good argument and I will try my best to counter your points (if I can) with my personal knowledge supported by the official papers and studies we can find on the Net .
My proposition is fair , don 't you think ?
 
""So please, by all means, show me some official documentation that supports your claim as to why the Rafail is required to have new engines in order for the UAE to even *consider* buying it?""
 
There is no official paper available on the open Net , nothing has leaked , sorry . The official requirement from the UAE is not known to the public at this time . Of course , some FAF personals gave their opinion and views on the subject in various French military forums . The general consensus is the one I talked about . It seems that the UAE do not need the M88-3 engine but would like to have it . Of course , they don 't want to pay for it and they would like to have the more powerfull Snecma engine for free as part of the deal . As an exemple , if I go to Ferrari and ask for 10 F-40s , I might well ask to get pimped up engines ;-)
 
""Also explain to me in plain simple english (since I am obviously slow and have a hard time speaking it) why it is that it seems anyone who might consider the Rafail and owns any other French type a/c requires France to *buy* back the old planes? Why is it just France that has to buy back all it's used a/c just to even be considered for a new a/c sale? That doesn't strike you as just a little bit odd?""
 
No it is not "odd" to me , you need to look at the big picture Beazz . First it is highly political , why that ?
France started a diplomatic battle with the UAE since the end of GW2  to build a French base on their soil , we ' ve got one now . 60% of the UAE military hardware is French and France is buying bucket loads of Oil from them .
Then , N. Sarkozy clearly said that attacking the UAE is asking for a military response from France which is an official statement as official as it can gets . The UAE do not really need France but France does need a permanent base in the region because war with Iran might well be on the menu in the incoming years . The straight of Hormuz is vital to everybody and French policy on Iran nuclear capability is crystal clear , civilian or nothing .
So the UAE can ask MUCH to the French , including buying back the M2000-9s because we need to be there .
In case push comes to shove with Iran , the UAE Rafales helped directly by the French (Ops and maintenace) is also something priceless for the UAE , then the Base could probably also be used by other friendly Nations (the USA comes to mind) .
No-one in the West has a closer Air and Naval base from Iran than France , we have to pay dearly for it (by not making a single cent on the Rafale deal) but it is well worth it .
 
Cheers .
 
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cwDeici       6/18/2009 4:22:18 AM
He's still posting here? How disappointing. Good thing most everyone has learnt to not listen to him.
 
What amazes me is he comes crawling to this place to convince us, maybe, just maybe because somewhere deep, deep inside he knows SP has an above average comment quality than other avionics thread where people feel the need to balance their opinions to preserve feelings and believe that all planes must be equal to avoid discrimination..
 
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Herald12345    UAE owns a lot of French Military Industrial complex.   6/18/2009 5:02:05 AM
Now why would I buy, French again?
 
Yep.
 
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french stratege       6/18/2009 10:05:13 AM
I don't understand at all why the Rafale is so easily discounted.
It match our national needs, is better than a SU35, and we are not going to buy a foreign fighter where we would not access to software code and design data.
A lot of french including my self would not support to buy a US plane and becoming dependant for use.
Unless USA would allow us 100% access to technology and software and to produce it in France.Which is unlikely to happens today or tomorrow.
We don"t need to pay for an army in dependancy.
 
Rafale is at F18E level, even better as an air fighter especially with AESA (and Meteor or mica IR) and even USA will keep F18E for decades.
The fact we export it or not is a secondary issue.
 
BTW UAE will never accept a second rate aircraft.
They can buy to USA, have money and order only first rate equipement.
 
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Bluewings12       6/18/2009 4:35:49 PM
FS :
""BTW UAE will never accept a second rate aircraft.
They can buy to USA, have money and order only first rate equipement.""
 
The United Arab Emirates are a small , quiet but powerfull Country . You don 't hear much from them , they don 't look for troubles and nobody is threatening them . It is the perfect place for an Air and Naval Base situated 150nm from the Iranian border . The UAE Forces could stop dead an Iranian invasion for a couple of months and Iran knows it , with 388 Leclerc MBTs , 80 F-16s Blk60 , 68 M2000-9s , the UAE can defend itself .
As FS said , the UAE are buying top notch military hardware . Since France has now a permanent Base in the UAE , it makes no sense to them to buy a non French fighter . For them , swapping M2000-9s for Rafales for a little fee is the best deal they could dream of . Even Israel ( IAF) would have a very hard time against the UAE Blk-60s and Rafales . The Iranian AF is outclassed big time .
 
Cheers .
 
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usajoe1    BW   6/18/2009 5:35:19 PM
The United Arab Emirates are a small , quiet but powerfull Country . You don 't hear much from them , they don 't look for troubles and nobody is threatening them . It is the perfect place for an Air and Naval Base situated 150nm from the Iranian border . The UAE Forces could stop dead an Iranian invasion for a couple of months and Iran knows it , with 388 Leclerc MBTs , 80 F-16s Blk60 , 68 M2000-9s , the UAE can defend itself .
As FS said , the UAE are buying top notch military hardware . Since France has now a permanent Base in the UAE , it makes no sense to them to buy a non French fighter . For them , swapping M2000-9s for Rafales for a little fee is the best deal they could dream of . Even Israel ( IAF) would have a very hard time against the UAE Blk-60s and Rafales . The Iranian AF is outclassed big time .
On paper, Saudi Arabia and UAE all have very capable Air Forces, but if you actually knew their real  capabilities, that is training/logistics/tactics etc... then you would not of made this false statement "Even Israel ( IAF) would have a very hard time against the UAE Blk-60s and Rafales "
 
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Herald12345    They did and you have.   6/18/2009 5:38:50 PM

I don't understand at all why the Rafale is so easily discounted.

It match our national needs, is better than a SU35, and we are not going to buy a foreign fighter where we would not access to software code and design data.

A lot of french including my self would not support to buy a US plane and becoming dependant for use.

Unless USA would allow us 100% access to technology and software and to produce it in France.Which is unlikely to happens today or tomorrow.

We don"t need to pay for an army in dependancy.

 

Rafale is at F18E level, even better as an air fighter especially with AESA (and Meteor or mica IR) and even USA will keep F18E for decades.

The fact we export it or not is a secondary issue.

 

BTW UAE will never accept a second rate aircraft.

They can buy to USA, have money and order only first rate equipement.


Now see if you can actually make an honest declaration based on facts for a change.
 
Herald
.
 
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