Rafale Thread

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Subject: Rafale Thread
Softwar 3/9/2009 9:47:25 AM

Started with hope that BW will limit his comments here instead of in every other Fighter thread. I'll start off with: 1 - no export sales 2 - no laser designator 3 - no AESA 4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter

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benellim4 4/13/2009 9:43:42 PM

I guess a week's worth of googling doesn't get you what it used to. All that time and the best he can come up with is IR jamming? Wow, that's weak.

As a Middie, I remember seeing IR jammers on old-a$$ USMC helos.

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warpig 4/13/2009 10:49:05 PM

What has SPECTRA got to do with accurately determining the three-dimensional bearing to an incoming IR missile in order to aim your laser range finder at it?

By the way, in addition to working on IR jamming of IR missile seekers, I do believe we're also working on RF burnout of IR missile seekers. Hopefully when Rafale gets an AESA they'll gain that capability, too.

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cwDeici 4/14/2009 5:13:15 AM

*squeal squeal squeal squal* = we think the Rafale is a good fighter and will turn confirmation bias into an artform.

Listening to this discussion reminds me of the 9-11 and lunar conspiracies.

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cwDeici 4/14/2009 5:24:36 AM

I have been away working , much have been said since my last post ...

Since the discussion is very much 'intellectual' orientated , allow me to switch to a more visual experience . I always said that the Rafale was one of the best flyer around and it was an enormous quality in itself . The jet can move in a fast turning 3Dworld faster than most other aircrafts and is probably the best dogfighter around , put aside its supersonic capabilities .

I 've chosen a recent video never posted here so you 'll see how the new Demo looks like . If you speak a bit of French , the gentle voice is from another Rafale pilot explaining the 6.30 minutes demo . It is an eye ~and ears~ opening :

h*tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctMM4zqO9a4&hl=fr

- at 30s , the first 9g climb

- at 55s , check the roll rate during the vertical dive followed by an 11g 'left eye"

from there to 1:23 , it is a constant 7g acceleration (the RAF Typhoon tried and missed , its altitude after the turn was too low)

- then it is a constant 9g turn to 1:45

- then you have a double barrel in a 6g left climb (that alone would put any Su-XX out)

- then , the usual "low speed" demo show , in this case 100 knots

- then afterburner and direct climb with vertical acceleration (from 2:45)

- followed by a gentle 360deg at 7g to show off

- we have now a full AB burst (from 3:25 to 3:38) with a full "left barrique" immediatly followed by a 8g turn (a SH will do a "straigh on" and cannot turn and a Viper will only turn 6g and loose 200 knots : the reason being that the SH doesn 't have the power and the Falcon is just outclassed)

-then , we have the "Square Dance" (starting at 3:59) This is a really fast roll followed by an 90deg 11g turn , 4 times in the row (to make a square) . As the Rafale pilot says , no other aircraft is able to do such violent and vicious stuff because the Rafale's airframe and FBW system is the best around . The Typhoon tried it and kept loosing altitude , not because of its engines ~wich are more powerfull than the Rafale 's M88~ but because of a lesser airframe and a lesser FBW . As it is now , no US aircraft is able to come close to fly the Square Dance (I would like to see the Raptor trying) .

- Then , the Rafale is doing a 9g climb/turn (right after the Square Dance) up to 4:45 then another 9g slow climb turn up to 5:10

- at 5:15 , Rafale is making a 30deg nose dive at high speed (that 's 11g)

- from 5:38 to the end , it is simply well done .

I liked very much the video because the AdA wanted to show and to prove that the Rafale can fly very fast when doing high G turns without loosing much speed as some people tend to believe . The Delta/canard shape is still running the show in more than one flight envelope , as long as you know how to build it . Keep in mind that the Gripen cannot do the Rafale 's Demo and the Typhoon also comes short . All delta wing designs are not equals ...

Being a excellent flyer is a quality on its own and a very important one .

There are many very good videos of SH , F15 , F16 , F-22 and various SU-xxs Demos around , but none show such speedy display . As one of my friend said :"doing a Cobra or a controled Stall against a M2000 or a Rafale in dogfight is suicidal" , my friend is a M2000-5 pilot here in Dijon .

The Rafale being an excellent flyer , it also have some tricks up it sleeves . The F3 standard might have the whole armory available , the F2 is probably even deadlier at long range because of the OSF and the SPECTRA F3 Blk . I will come back on it later in this post with some goods .

There is a very known video about the Rafale F3 called "Global punch" :

h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzrje_rafale-global-punch_extreme

The only "mistake" is that the Helmet Mounted Sight (HMS) is not available , the rest is spot on (RBE2 , MICA , SPECTRA , AASM , APACHE , etc ) .

I also wanted to speak about something rather untalked here because it is a sensitive topic : Infra-Red Jamming .

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cwDeici 4/14/2009 5:27:18 AM

Unlike Herald the author of this site and the book 'How to Make War' thinks the Rafale is as good as the 16 in air to air... I don't remember it's ground capabilities.

I happen to partially agree with him. It's worse in air to air but it has more potential.

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cwDeici 4/14/2009 5:29:30 AM

The fact that this guy is a pilot doesn't mean you're understanding what he is saying properly.
How about you try to get in touch with this pilot and ask him his honest opinion on what you could compare the Rafale too?

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cwDeici 4/14/2009 5:34:15 AM

Why do you insist on deep arguments? All we can do as uneducated ones in such a subject as this is not to understand the subject ourselves but to properly gauge the depth of arguments of others. Quantity of opinion matters often, but if you disregard Occam's razor you have to go with science... and those are the people you're fighting.

If you even took one uncomfortable minute to assume the Rafale was a bad plane you'd find a lot of reasons to back it up. Reasons you've erected castles in the sky to fob off. This is all well and good except that they are sky castles.

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cwDeici 4/14/2009 5:38:12 AM

What's most easy to tell is that Herald and others accuse you of being unscientific and biased in favor of the Rafale. You accuse them of being biased in favor of other planes, hating France and being horrible debaters.

...

The bolded text is a monumental clue to the weakness of the logic you apply to understand your debate opponents, the cursive text is also important.

But you're never, ever, ever going to listen (that may be too much to ask), but it isn't too much to CONSIDER the other point of view. You should try it, because I KNOW you're wrong and you're just going to spend a few decades watching the Rafale slide into obscurity. Perhaps by then you'll still deny it and hold that it was unjustly denied it's proper glory.

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Bluewings12 4/15/2009 11:27:42 AM

It is obvious that some of you are shooting at the messenger and not at the message itself , which is usual here on SP .

The problem is simple : some can 't argue against the facts I post so they decide to go personal : "BW is a clown , he 's ignorant , he 's biaised , he doesn 't have a clue " , etc ... Well , you have the right to say whatever you want as long as you stay polite and you are .

I am not surprised at all to read some absolute non-sense like :

""As a Middie, I remember seeing IR jammers on old-a$$ USMC helos.""

if that old technology was suitable for present day Fighters , it would be in use which is not the case . You do not understand that the main problem is threefold : #1 you need to know that you 've been shot at and where from , #2 you need to precisely follow the incoming missile , #3 you must have the hardware to jam the IR seeker .

Since some IR missiles have a range in excess of 60-80km , detecting the launch is a task in itself then you need to know in which sector of the sky the launch occured . The Rafale IR detection for missile warning is very good , covering four 90degree cones , each separatly . The infos coming from a detected launch in any sector will be passed on the mainframe computer who will : #1 warn the Pilot , #2 infom SPECTRA , #3 steer the OSF , the MICAs IR seekers and the TV cam onto the missile if it is coming from the front sectors , #4 propose to the pilot a "line" for possible evasives mesures .

This whole capability in itself is far to be available to most Fighters . What I described can be verified by reading the FoxThree 1 publication , I am not inventing stuff like some of you seem to believe .

In fact , everything I said might not be very much technical but can be verified , which is not always the case with what some other posters say .

Also , there is one thing you should all keep in mind : the possible customers trust and praise the Rafale but they don 't trust France .

It is two different topics , Gentlemen .

You often make the amalgam because the Rafale didn 't get a single sale abroad , so in your mind it must only be an average aircraft . Well , wrong .

Just look at the last 40 years or so ... Dassault and the French Forces fielded the Mirage serie (III , C, B) , the M-IV (capable to vaporize Moscow) , the Etendard , the Super Etendard , then all the M2000 series (more than 8 different aircrafts) , the Super Etendard Modernized (SEM) . All have been excellent designs and capable to do the job . More than 25 Nations used them .

Now , how can some people just think that the Rafale is not the best thing Dassault ever made ???

The Rafale has been tailored to perfectly fit the FAF and is the best aircraft France ever had . When used within a decent to very good C4s , the Jet is capable to perform many tasks with panache and cannot be threaten easily .

Give France the latest SHs instead of Rafale and we will loose much . I mean what I say .

(more later)

Cheers .

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Herald12345 Yawn. 4/15/2009 11:29:52 AM

S^2D^2.

Herald

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