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Subject: Rafale Thread
Softwar    3/9/2009 9:47:25 AM
Started with hope that BW will limit his comments here instead of in every other Fighter thread. I'll start off with: 1 - no export sales 2 - no laser designator 3 - no AESA 4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter
 
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MM       4/6/2009 8:31:15 PM
from my exp we found that the advertised range typically referred to a blob detection, discriminatory and target useful range was atypically 60% (and often less) of advertised range. This was done on various Euro solutions

So when you talk about target useful ranges are you talking about the ability to develop a useful target track?  Also what about networking for triangulation?

 

Thx

MM


 
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gf0012-aust       4/6/2009 10:59:21 PM

So when you talk about target useful ranges are you talking about the ability to develop a useful target track?  


I'm talking about a corresponding level of confidence capability for a given solution 

 
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karlos    OPTIC   4/9/2009 2:13:30 AM
 

You clearly have no understanding of IRSTs, or even optics... and yet you insist on inventing capabilities for your favorite airplane.


 
To tell the truth, US is far behind EU in optics area. German technology is the front edge and France is next to it.
 
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gf0012-aust       4/9/2009 2:46:49 AM
To tell the truth, US is far behind EU in optics area. German technology is the front edge and France is next to it.
the swedes are miles ahead of the french and germans.... figuratively and actually....

 
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Bluewings12       4/13/2009 7:05:01 PM
I have been away working , much have been said since my last post ...
 
Since the discussion is very much 'intellectual' orientated , allow me to switch to a more visual experience . I always said that the Rafale was one of the best flyer around and it was an enormous quality in itself . The jet can move in a fast turning 3Dworld faster than most other aircrafts and is probably the best dogfighter around , put aside its supersonic capabilities .
I 've chosen a recent video never posted here so you 'll see how the new Demo looks like  . If you speak a bit of French , the gentle voice is from another Rafale pilot explaining the 6.30 minutes demo . It is an eye ~and ears~ opening :
 
h*tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctMM4zqO9a4&hl=fr
 
- at 30s , the first 9g climb
- at 55s , check the roll rate during the vertical dive followed by an 11g 'left eye"
from there to 1:23 , it is a constant 7g acceleration (the RAF Typhoon tried and missed , its altitude after the turn was too low)
- then it is a constant 9g turn to 1:45
- then you have a double barrel in a 6g left climb (that alone would put any Su-XX out)
- then , the usual "low speed" demo show , in this case 100 knots
- then afterburner and direct climb with vertical acceleration (from 2:45)
- followed by a gentle 360deg at 7g to show off
- we have now a full AB burst (from 3:25 to 3:38) with a full "left barrique" immediatly followed by a 8g turn (a SH will do a "straigh on" and cannot turn and a Viper will only turn 6g and loose 200 knots : the reason being that the SH doesn 't have the power and the Falcon is just outclassed)
 
-then , we have the "Square Dance" (starting at 3:59) This is a really fast roll followed by an 90deg 11g turn , 4 times in the row (to make a square) . As the Rafale pilot says , no other aircraft is able to do such violent and vicious stuff because the Rafale's airframe and FBW system is the best around . The Typhoon tried it and kept loosing altitude , not because of its engines ~wich are more powerfull than the Rafale 's M88~ but because of a lesser airframe and a lesser FBW . As it is now , no US aircraft is able to come close to fly the Square Dance (I would like to see the Raptor trying) .
- Then , the Rafale is doing a 9g climb/turn (right after the Square Dance) up to 4:45 then another 9g slow climb turn up to 5:10
- at 5:15 , Rafale is making a 30deg nose dive at high speed (that 's 11g)
- from 5:38 to the end , it is simply well done .
 
I liked very much the video because the AdA wanted to show and to prove that the Rafale can fly very fast when doing high G turns without loosing much speed as some people tend to believe . The Delta/canard shape is still running the show in more than one flight envelope , as long as you know how to build it . Keep in mind that the Gripen cannot do the Rafale 's Demo and the Typhoon also comes short . All delta wing designs are not equals ...
Being a excellent flyer is a quality on its own and a very important one .
There are many very good videos of SH , F15 , F16 , F-22 and various SU-xxs Demos around , but none show such speedy display . As one of my friend said :"doing a Cobra or a controled Stall against a M2000 or a Rafale in dogfight is suicidal" , my friend is a M2000-5 pilot here in Dijon .
 
The Rafale being an excellent flyer , it also have some tricks up it sleeves . The F3 standard might have the whole armory available , the F2 is probably even deadlier at long range because of the OSF and the SPECTRA F3 Blk . I will come back on it later in this post with some goods .
There is a very known video about the Rafale F3 called "Global punch" :
h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzrje_rafale-global-punch_extreme
 
The only "mistake" is that the Helmet Mounted Sight (HMS) is not available , the rest is spot on (RBE2 , MICA , SPECTRA , AASM , APACHE , etc ) .
 
 
I also wanted to speak about something rather untalked here because it is a sensitive topic : Infra-Red Jamming .
I am not talking about deceptive flares but about active IR jamming
Actively jamming an IR seeker is a hard task . To start with , you have no way to detect the end tracking as it is perfectly passive . The missile can perfectly close on you undetected for the last 10km , your defensive systems might have spotted the missile leaving its rail (IR long range warning) but the rest is up to the missile and the up-link Fighter/missile . Do WE have anything to actively jam the incoming IR missile ?&nb
 
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ArtyEngineer    IR Jamming - BW   4/13/2009 7:56:01 PM


I also wanted to speak about something rather untalked here because it is a sensitive topic : Infra-Red Jamming .


I am not talking about deceptive flares but about active IR jamming


Actively jamming an IR seeker is a hard task . To start with , you have no way to detect the end tracking as it is perfectly passive . The missile can perfectly close on you undetected for the last 10km , your defensive systems might have spotted the missile leaving its rail (IR long range warning) but the rest is up to the missile and the up-link Fighter/missile . Do WE have anything to actively jam the incoming IR missile ?  Well ?..

...


Yes we do . When I say "we" , I mean pretty much anyone who has been fielding an excellent LRF (Laser Range Finder) onboard a fighter (a lot of people has) . But an excellent LRF is not good enough , you need a second capability and here we are going into sensitive ground .


What are you talking about!!!!!!  There is nothing secretive or amazing about Active IR Jamming!!!!  Hell BAE offeres a Commercial version of their military IR Jammer for use in civilian Airlines.  Its called JetEye.  See below for an open source timeline with regards to BAE Systems development of IR countermeasures.

1980s ? Threats to VIP aircraft intensified as terrorists acquired man-portable IR missiles. U.S. agencies and several allied nations turned to BAE Systems, which developed tailored VIP aircraft protection programs, underscoring the company?s preeminence in IR protection technology.

1981 ? A quick turnaround contract to put IRCM on AWACS in 90 days led to the development of protection systems for large and corporate aircraft.

1983 ? In Operation Wild Turkey, BAE Systems' IRCM protected the space shuttle Enterprise against terrorist attack as it was flown to the Paris Air Show on the back of a 747.

1991 ? BAE Systems won the Army?s Engineering and Manufacturing Development (EMD) contract for a next-generation IR countermeasure, ATIRCM — the Advanced Threat IR Countermeasures System. ATIRCM contains a missile warning system and incorporates a laser for directable jamming of multiple IR threats.

1994 ? First defeat of a MANPADS (ground launched) missile with the laser DIRCM developed by BAE Systems.

1998 ? First defeat of an antiaircraft missile (air launched) with laser DIRCM developed by BAE Systems.

1999 ? In world's first-ever demonstration of a laser-based directable countermeasure defeating IR-guided missiles, BAE Systems' Tactical Aircraft Directional Infrared Countermeasures (TADIRCM) defeats both surface-to-air and air-to-air IR-guided missiles at White Sands Missile Range, N.M.

2000 ? BAE Systems' Advanced Threat Infrared Countermeasures/Common Missile Warning System (ATIRCM/CMWS) successfully detects, tracks, and jams live missiles in sled testing at Holloman Air Force Base, N.M.

2001 ? The ATIRCM/CMWS successfully defeats all ten IR-guided missiles fired at it ? singly and in multiples ? during cable car testing at White Sands Missile Range, N.M.

March 2002 ? BAE Systems' Common Missile Warning System (CMWS) ? installed in a drone aircraft ? performs successfully against eight MANPAD missiles fired at it.

Sept. 2002 ? BAE Systems delivers the first of the CMWS ordered by the U.S. Army for its helicopters taking part in Operation Enduring Freedom.

Nov. 2003 ? BAE Systems and U.S. Army test CMWS flare dispensers aboard a CH-47 Chinook helicopter.


NOTE.  The first directable laser has been around since 1991!!!!
 
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ArtyEngineer    BAE Systems - Jam Lab   4/13/2009 8:05:28 PM
Hopefully I have pulled the correct html code to embed this vid.  If it dont work just go to the link posted a look at BEA Systems capabilities in this field.
 
http://stream.edgeboss.net/wmedia/stream/bae/jeteye_jamlab.wmv" width="320" height="320" type="video/x-ms-asf" autoplay="1" autosize="1" showstatusbar="1" showcontrols="1" filename="Jam Lab Overview">
 
Here is link to page:
 
 
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Bluewings12       4/13/2009 8:08:25 PM
Arty , I hear you loud and clear but which Fighter-Striker jet as the capability ?
(without any defensive or active Pods)
 
Cheers .
 
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gf0012-aust       4/13/2009 8:17:04 PM
hopefully I have pulled the correct html code to embed this vid.  If it dont work just go to the link posted a look at BEA Systems capabilities in this field.

that footage must be close to 10 years old...... :)

IIRC the US has had their version on AF1 and AF2 close to 15 years ago.  Now you find it on every man and hos dog.  I think we're fielding it in the Ghan with some of our Hercs (those that do the weekly bagdgad milk run) - and IIRC the Israelis also kit ourt all their airliners with it and have done so ever since the SA-7's became a threat.

another good example of military technology going mainstream into a commercial capability.
 
 
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gf0012-aust    oops   4/13/2009 8:19:48 PM
apols for the prev typos, phat phingerz and too lazy to type, check, cut, copy and paste on this crappy forum software.


 
 
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