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Subject: Rafale Thread
Softwar    3/9/2009 9:47:25 AM
Started with hope that BW will limit his comments here instead of in every other Fighter thread. I'll start off with: 1 - no export sales 2 - no laser designator 3 - no AESA 4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter
 
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JFKY    I don't understand...   3/22/2009 6:42:54 PM
What is the problem?  Rafale works for the French.  It delivers a decent a/c, at a cost.  BUT, the French consider the cost worth it, because they keep the ability to design and produce a high performance a/c and it is a FRENCH high performance a/c.  To that extent, BRAVO...IF you value that ability then it's worth the cost, to France.
 
But what I don't understand is this compulsive need to make the Rafale something that apparently it's not.  An exportable commodity.  I just listen here, but it seems that Rafale delivers Capacity "1" for Cost "1".  Now France is willing to buy that capacity for that cost.
 
BUT, other groups see they can buy Gripen and get capacity .9 for cost .75.  Yeah you get less, but it costs a lot less too.  So that for some markets Rafale is too costly, for what you get.
 
Others see that they can get an F-35 at cost 1.5 but with capacity 2.  Yeah it costs more but it does more, and for a high end user that can afford the price, the increased benefit is well worth it.
 
I guess the question is where does the Super-Hornet fit on that scale, it's not cheap, it's not as capable as an F-35....so mayhap the Rafale ought to be able to compete with the SH.  But again it doesn't seem to.
 
My point, tiny as it is, is for the French posters just accept the Rafale for what it is, a decent plane, that fulfills France's military/political/economic needs.  As not everyone has those needs, in fact it seems the Rafale fits a very small niche, of FRANCE's needs, then it follows that it's export potential is fairly low.
 
I'd buy a Rafale if I wanted to fly low, fly fast, AND make sure French aviation workers have jobs.  Generally speaking Belgium, Gabon, or South Korea, don't see the need to keep FRENCH workers employed as a "feature," and so have a tendency to buy a plane that doesn't have as one of its primary goals continued employment in La France.
 
That's not a "knock" on anyone.  It says France had a desire for a FRENCH a/c, not everyone feels that pull...but because the Rafale is as much about FRANCE as it is about Combat Capacity, you really can't expect a lot of foreign sales.
 
Bottom-Line: Rafale works for France.  Rejoice if you're French.  But please stop trying to spin your a/c as something it isn't.  Almost no one says you have a "dog" of a plane, just that it's a plane that isn't what it's fanboyz claim it is.  Accept Rafale for what it is, and be happy.
 
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DarthAmerica       3/22/2009 6:51:10 PM

DA, I disagree.  The trade off of a few convenient links does not justify the trolling enabled.  Nothing interesting has been disclosed in Rafale discussions; I see no reason why this could change in a favorable direction with commie fanboys posting their online drivel cleared to tow the party line.  Can you name three specific technologies or tactics re Rafale that SP discussions have yieled here?  This is not a disguised personal attack, you have my respect.  0.02



v^2

I should have been more specific. I mean I like to read things about the joint training such as with the HAF for instance. I generally don't care to research the specifics of things like touch sensitive displays in a particular platform because its not really important to me directly. But when people discuss it here, its just one more thing to know even if it's just platform trivia. Don't get me wrong, I don't want a bunch of post about Plasma Stealth and how the Su-35 can fly backwards and carries missiles with 400km range. But sometimes those discussions do produce interesting spin off discussion. It isn't necessarily Rafale or platform specific.

Let us all be honest too. I strongly disagree with a lot of BW claims with regard to that plane as do most here. But to say we get nothing out of the discussion begs the question of why we participate in the first place? I'm also interested in the point of view of others as well. My 0.02

 Regards
DA
 
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earlm       3/22/2009 7:26:05 PM
There's not  whole lot of point to discussions about Su's and MiG's now.  We don't have access the the info. needed to have a good discussion.  It's all about EW and networking.  You brought up the J-10.  It appears it's basically their Rafale, good A2G but disappointing A2A.  A carrier version may be built.  Other than that we don't know enough to have a good discussion.
 
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HERALD1357    Ascerbic comment.   3/22/2009 7:36:55 PM
In order for the French to AFFORD Rafale as they desired, they need exports and paying customers to justify a production run of at least 350 aircraft including roughly 100 export orders. The foreign customer was/is expected to foot the bill for the development costs for the future goodies like a better radar, better avionics, and finally a better air to air missile.

Well guess what? This Dassault/French government combine of the time (Chirac) scheme backfired. The rest of the world (Eurofighter) decided that they didn't want to fund a French fighter to French requirements. They decided after much squabbling among themselves what they wanted and they designed it with a set of upgrade paths that they would fund for themselves as political and technical decision points in their program (Typhoon). They bought and paid, baseline, for what they wanted up front without overpromising to their chief customers (themselves) or lying too much to each other what they could or would do..
 
They built it to a very good marketable baseline aircraft among themselves (everyone of them had slightly different requirements, so Typhoon had to be adaptable) and  then they went out and looked for customers.
 
The Sparky Combine was a little different. LockMart went around shopping for partners and customers and promised workshare, techshare and market share. It used its reputation and a BIG customer (Uncle) to sell the plane off paper to its market buddies, designed it for a global market, and then LockMarted them into the program with ongoing paid work.
 
Eurofighter and LockMart didn't pull a Wimpie.
   
Those of you familiar with Popeye, the Sailor, will understand the reference.
 
Herald
 
 
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Phaid       3/22/2009 7:53:38 PM
Let us all be honest too. I strongly disagree with a lot of BW claims with regard to that plane as do most here. But to say we get nothing out of the discussion begs the question of why we participate in the first place? I'm also interested in the point of view of others as well. My 0.02
 
I totally agree.  I probably wouldn't bother reading detailed results of this or that DACT exercise or some competition between two aircraft I don't have any stake in, if it wasn't to settle this or that point of contention.  And while the arguments themselves get tedious, the research is pretty interesting.  Frankly, it's a little bit like any scientific discipline: you learn the most when you're trying to solve a problem.
 
I do wish these things were a little less adversarial.  It would be nice if, for example, the response to articles about the latest Red Flag were along the lines of: "that's great, we had Rafales doing low level penetration strikes against high value targets, Hornets doing SEAD, Eagles doing top cover, and F-16s doing follow-up strikes; each using its strengths to balance the others."  Instead we get chest-thumping nonsense about being the most valuable platform and the like.
 
But what are you going to do?  Airplanes are phallic symbols (with the exception of the B-2) so I guess it makes sense these things turn into a p*ssing contest.  Er I mean a d*ck waving competition.  Well, you get the, uh, point.
 
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DarthAmerica       3/22/2009 8:03:29 PM

Let us all be honest too. I strongly disagree with a lot of BW claims with regard to that plane as do most here. But to say we get nothing out of the discussion begs the question of why we participate in the first place? I'm also interested in the point of view of others as well. My 0.02

 

I totally agree.  I probably wouldn't bother reading detailed results of this or that DACT exercise or some competition between two aircraft I don't have any stake in, if it wasn't to settle this or that point of contention.  And while the arguments themselves get tedious, the research is pretty interesting.  Frankly, it's a little bit like any scientific discipline: you learn the most when you're trying to solve a problem.


 

I do wish these things were a little less adversarial.  It would be nice if, for example, the response to articles about the latest Red Flag were along the lines of: "that's great, we had Rafales doing low level penetration strikes against high value targets, Hornets doing SEAD, Eagles doing top cover, and F-16s doing follow-up strikes; each using its strengths to balance the others."  Instead we get chest-thumping nonsense about being the most valuable platform and the like.


 

But what are you going to do?  Airplanes are phallic symbols (with the exception of the B-2) so I guess it makes sense these things turn into a p*ssing contest.  Er I mean a d*ck waving competition.  Well, you get the, uh, point.


Agreed. And we should all make an effort to remain respectful in spite of the flag/d*ck waving. For instance, if I told BW the Rafale is a horrible plane and a SuperHornet would dominate it all day, thats fine. But I don't see the need to jump right into somethig directed at the person. I understand we are all people and tempers can and do flare however. But the value in being able to participate in an open forum is something I think all should be able to enjoy. Unlike a book or spec sheet, you never know where the discussion will go. It's interactive learning.

-DA 
 
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gf0012-aust       3/22/2009 9:56:02 PM
Agreed. And we should all make an effort to remain respectful in spite of the flag/d*ck waving. For instance, if I told BW the Rafale is a horrible plane and a SuperHornet would dominate it all day, thats fine. But I don't see the need to jump right into somethig directed at the person. I understand we are all people and tempers can and do flare however. But the value in being able to participate in an open forum is something I think all should be able to enjoy. Unlike a book or spec sheet, you never know where the discussion will go. It's interactive learning.

-DA 

have you looked at some of your earlier posts wrt French Stratege and Bluewings?  You make Herald look like a nun... :)
 
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DarthAmerica       3/22/2009 10:42:15 PM




Agreed. And we should all make an effort to remain respectful in spite of the flag/d*ck waving. For instance, if I told BW the Rafale is a horrible plane and a SuperHornet would dominate it all day, thats fine. But I don't see the need to jump right into somethig directed at the person. I understand we are all people and tempers can and do flare however. But the value in being able to participate in an open forum is something I think all should be able to enjoy. Unlike a book or spec sheet, you never know where the discussion will go. It's interactive learning.




-DA 




have you looked at some of your earlier posts wrt French Stratege and Bluewings?  You make Herald look like a nun... :)

Sure do don't I...;) But I've since matured past that point minor backsliding aside and thanks to a lot of you.

-DA 
 
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leroy       3/23/2009 2:41:23 AM
As I have said plenty of times before, the problem isn't that Bluewings is ignorant, although he is.  The biggest problem is that he is unwilling to discuss topics like an adult and learn from the information made available to him.
 
How many times have we had to correct the same lies/mistakes from him?  Nothing ever changes. 
 
Over and over and over again he shows up and starts making ridiculous claims about the Rafale and/or bashing US aircraft.  
 
We don't need fanboys here, of any type. 
 
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Bluewings12       3/23/2009 3:43:19 PM
I couldn 't answer earlier as I was in Belgium with my Truck .
So many things have been said in the last 2 days that I cannot answer everybody , sorry in advance .
To start with , Leroy :
""As I have said plenty of times before, the problem isn't that Bluewings is ignorant, although he is.  The biggest problem is that he is unwilling to discuss topics like an adult and learn from the information made available to him.""
 
First , I am not ignorant . In the past 6 years or so , I believe that I 've demonstrated quite a good knowledge of the FAF .
If I was unwilling to discuss like an adult , you wouldn 't even bother to respond to my numerous posts and I always learn something new at every thread . How many times did I say "Ok that 's true , you 're right" , many times when it 's founded and backed-up . I am not stupid , I rarely go against the facts when I can 't prove my case and I am an honest poster .
You might not like me but I couldn 't care less , I know that I 've an entire Website against me but I coudn 't care less .
I am not there to polish my Ego , I 'm here with a different voice and a diffrent opinion than yours .
 
Warpig :
""BW, I'd love to hear how a MICA IR (or any IR air-to-air missile) can be used as an IRST.  I'll grant the "IR" part of IRST, that's obvious.  And once the missile seeker is locked on, *it* can then perform the "T" part for itself.  Feel free to offer up anything regarding how an IR missile can provide any amount of "S" and "T" for the aircraft, much less perform as an IRST the way the IRST part of the OSF of some of the F2 versions that actually do have an IRST does.  Don't forget things like how the seeker is controlled and cooled during all this S and T time.""
 
The answer is simple and I wander why you ask : SPECTRA + IR MICA .
I explain with the help of few factsheets : First , SPECTRA RWR will detect and track the opposite radar with a 1deg accuracy and pass on the information to the IR MICA . Within less than 2 minutes (if the pilot did not ask earlier) , the IR MICA will act as an IRST . Note than the Pilot can choose to use the MICA as an IRST without having any kind of detection or lock .
h*tp://www.sagem-ds.com/pdf/en/D084.pdf
I quote :
? Autonomous acquisition of several air targets in an adaptable field of regard
? Delivery of tracking and guidance orders to the missile autopilot
? Autonomous threat search capability in a very large field of regard
? Lock-on before and after launch in any presentation against fighters
 
Your questions have been answered Warpig . Write it down , this way you will not come back at me with the same questions over and over again (that goes for all posters) ...
 
Now , I am talking to you Phaid . You are the only one here to have a very good and almost up to date knowledge on the French hardware and since you read french very well , I like very much to discuss with you :-) Respect .
First , I wasn 't aware of that Greek paper , kudos to you . Let me be back on it for a moment .
 
""1) The lack of RWRs in the F-16s was a problem; the French fighters aborted when they detected a lockon; the Greek fighters were not able to do that.""
 
This is clearly demonstrating the Rafale 's edge in BVR , the French Jet knew someone was there and the Jet knew exactly where the adversary was .
 
""2) The F-16's AGP-68(V)9 worked extremely well and gave the HAF the ability to detect the French from quite a long distance and coordinate maneuvers at long range via Link-16""
 
The Rafale F1s did not have the Link-16 at this time . Nevertheless , point #1 proved that the AGP-68(V9) was detected and tracked by SPECTRA and the French Fighters aborted the fight because the Greek Blk-60 was unable to counter the French menace .
 
""3) Due to its PESA architecture, RBE2 range is inferior to AESA; based on performance in the exercise HAF estimates its range is not superior to the [mechanically scanned] AGP-68(V)9.  However the RBE2 was, as expected, more flexible, giving it the ability to track more targe
 
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