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Subject: Rafale Thread
Softwar    3/9/2009 9:47:25 AM
Started with hope that BW will limit his comments here instead of in every other Fighter thread. I'll start off with: 1 - no export sales 2 - no laser designator 3 - no AESA 4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter
 
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earlm       3/22/2009 4:13:10 PM
The exposed rivets area actually the antennae for SPECTRA, they're supposed to be like that.  Even the F22 doesn't have exposed rivets or gaps in its panels, obviously the F-22 engineers don't know what they're doing.
 
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leroy       3/22/2009 4:28:03 PM
"Unless both are in wartime modes it's almost irrelevant."
 
And even then it doesn't mean a lot.  Neither of these systems are "threat" systems for the other.  Nobody is going to waste a lot of time trying to work out effective countermeasures for a system only your allies operate.
 
(Another reason bluewing's BS about allies "winning" in training against each other makes no sense)
 
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gf0012-aust       3/22/2009 4:28:08 PM

 

1 - no export sales -----------maybe soon

if you care to trawl through the history of rafale posts in here since 2005 (thats the furthest I went back before I lost complete interest) we've had any number of French posters crowing about how certain export sales would be - Saudis, Moroccans, Dutch, SIngaporeans, Sth Koreans etc....  If they had been less "vocal" about such a "sure thing" these sales were going to be, then perhaps this wouldn't get raised so visibly.  


2 - no laser designator ----------- according to the schedule it should have been done in early 2009, so the damocles pod may be be integrated right now

Damocles will be gold on the Malay Su-27's before its on Rafales.  The Malays seem to think that they're being used as mules for integration V&V issues


3 - no AESA ----------- incoming,link

Still not here, though - and yet its raised as a dead cert every few posts.  This is despite the fact that not only has France reduced its build rate (ugly if costs are to be amortised) but now it's looking for an export partner (and probably any partner) to moxy up for AESA dev and integration costs as part of a fleet buy.

4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter --------- cheaper than F-22, F-35, Eurofighter, it will serve France perfectly (from military, political and economical point of views) and with its abilities, it could satisfy the requirements of a lot of countries.

F-22 and JSF are real 5th generation.  They're ground up 5th gen, not retrofits.  The EF was designed for a different employment philosophy.  If you want to make a generational comparison at a multi-strike level, then the closest carrier based modern 4.5 gen with bells and whistles equivalency on paper is the Shornet F or Growler if you want to compare two seaters.

It may satisfy the requirements of a lot of countries, but to date in excess of 6 tier 1 and tier 2 airforces have rejected it.  No europeans have bought it, and those that haven't gone for US product have gone for the EF or Gripen.  The only uncomitted airforces left are middle eastern and/or tier 3's.  Thats hardly an example of confidence, and it's a pointed rejection by continental europe of a fellow european product.

so who's left that is regarded as a competent military power with a decent airforce?  in the middle east it's the saudis and the jordanians (with the latter the far more professional outfit).  Jordan is certainly not interested in French fixed wing fighter kit, and the saudis have a long term relationship  with both the US and UK stemming from the turn of the last century.  The Saudi Royal family is very much UK friendly and has had a long relationship with the US ever since Gen Schwarzkopffs father "did his bit"60 odd years ago.

 





 
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gf0012-aust       3/22/2009 4:31:12 PM

The exposed rivets area actually the antennae for SPECTRA, they're supposed to be like that.  Even the F22 doesn't have exposed rivets or gaps in its panels, obviously the F-22 engineers don't know what they're doing.
I was more focused on the saw tooth paneling area.  the rivets there are "proud", and some of the seams are blistered.
I wasn't referencing the SPECTRA nodes.
 
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HERALD1357    i AM WELL AWARE OF EXERCISE POWER AND PROPOGATION LIMITS.   3/22/2009 6:12:13 PM



The exposed rivets area actually the antennae for SPECTRA, they're supposed to be like that.  Even the F22 doesn't have exposed rivets or gaps in its panels, obviously the F-22 engineers don't know what they're doing.

I was more focused on the saw tooth paneling area.  the rivets there are "proud", and some of the seams are blistered.

I wasn't referencing the SPECTRA nodes.


There should have been some effect though-even with reduced systems. I read of no effect. Not even a warble.
 
None.
And that should worry somebody.
 
Herald
.
 
 
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DarthAmerica    IRONY   3/22/2009 6:13:41 PM
There is a certain degree of irony here when you consider how much we all know about the Rafale Program that otherwise if not for all the back and forth we might not know. Maybe we should get someone to like the J-10 or J-11...

-DA 
 
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earlm       3/22/2009 6:22:30 PM
The post about the rivets is pure sarcasm.
 
DA you are totally wrong.  We don't want any Chinese or Russian Fanboys on the board defending their crap.  Since you are a serving member of the US armed forces you can look forward to being called an imperialist baby killer or worse.  The rest of us get treated to absolutely delusional ravings and far left politics.  BW isn't 1% as bad as a Russian Fanboy or "Chinese patriot."  Visit a few other boards to see the psychos in action.
 
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Phaid       3/22/2009 6:27:52 PM

...Against Rafale F-1 according to your greek document... Rafale F-1 was a substandard for the French Navy : radar rbe-2 and spectra at F-1 standard, no link-16, etc... very immature plateform TOO like the RWR-less f-16 block 52 at time of the exercise (your bias is impressive to be honest). 

No.  It is a perfectly correct comparison: two not quite mature and yet obviously equivalent airplanes.
 
BIAS would have been to claim that "SPECTRA has never been used in an active mode" when it clearly has, as the article I posted illustrates.
 
Indeed, it seems extremely strange that it takes a sale bete ricain to "discover" this fact, one would have expected the French posters to be much better informed about these sorts of developments.  Non?

Moreover, if some people think that French Air Force or French Navy are going to use their EW equipments at "full power" during friendly exercises, they are mistaken.

 

Mais bien sur.  Every time Rafale loses, it is because the French were holding back!  Just like in Singapore, just like in Korea, just like against the Super Hornets in JTFX, just like the Rafale killed by a Jaguar in TLP,  just like in every other exercise in which the Rafale shows that it is simply a competent but very pedestrian little 4th generation fighter.

That line is so tired, you know?  At some point you're just going to have to admit that your 4th gen fighter with its DJM suite with a nice marketing name is really just a slightly more au-point F-16, and be content. 

 

phaid="uprated engines required to support AESA"

wrong, the Rafale doesn't need uprated engines to operate an AESA. The Rafale demonstrated the rbe 2 aesa in switzerland in 2008 with its current m-88 engines.

 

That Rafale in the Armasuisse trials was flying a prototype RBE2-AA whose performance has not been described publicly.  But doesn't it seem odd that 1) the AdlA has not agreed to re-equip its current Rafale fleet with RBE2-AA (when it becomes available of course) and 2) the only Rafales offered for sale with AESA are those that would be equipped with uprated M88s?  Tiens, tiens.
 
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DarthAmerica       3/22/2009 6:33:45 PM

The post about the rivets is pure sarcasm.

 

DA you are totally wrong.  We don't want any Chinese or Russian Fanboys on the board defending their crap.  Since you are a serving member of the US armed forces you can look forward to being called an imperialist baby killer or worse.  The rest of us get treated to absolutely delusional ravings and far left politics.  BW isn't 1% as bad as a Russian Fanboy or "Chinese patriot."  Visit a few other boards to see the psychos in action.
 
 
LOL maybe so. But I get called worse from some of the techno fanboys here so I'm not bothered by it. It's just that we have analyzed the Rafale so many times over that each time, I manage to pick up a little detail I didn't know about. It's made me both admire and admonish particular aspects of the program. I certainly have a better understanding of the aircraft that's for sure.

-DA 


 
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VelocityVector       3/22/2009 6:39:29 PM
DA, I disagree.  The trade off of a few convenient links does not justify the trolling enabled.  Nothing interesting has been disclosed in Rafale discussions; I see no reason why this could change in a favorable direction with commie fanboys posting their online drivel cleared to tow the party line.  Can you name three specific technologies or tactics re Rafale that SP discussions have yieled here?  This is not a disguised personal attack, you have my respect.  0.02

v^2
 
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