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Subject: Rafale Thread
Softwar    3/9/2009 9:47:25 AM
Started with hope that BW will limit his comments here instead of in every other Fighter thread. I'll start off with: 1 - no export sales 2 - no laser designator 3 - no AESA 4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter
 
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DarthAmerica    BW reply   3/9/2009 11:22:09 PM

The facts shows that the Rafale is still in the making , but the aircraft is already a true 4.5 gen Fighter and can be accounted for if the sh*t hit the fan . 
The Typhoon is nowhere close to the Rafale and the F-35 is still a paper plane .

Cheers .

BW,

Aside from your usual fans, things are still relatively cordial compared to past "Rafale Pro/Con threads". OK so with that in mind, I have a few questions for you. Now keep in mind we have been debating this with each other for a good percentage of the decade! Can you believe that? Wow...anyway...

OK, and I'll be respectful if you remain that way, here are the questions.

1. I'm personally amazed at the level of conviction in your voice when we mention things like Rafale has no Laser designator and you respond with "Oh, if we need it, it is no problem to integrate". If that's the case, then why is it taking so long? Also, it seems to me that you think integrating complex electronics that have to conform to the laws of physics and meet the demands of combat is easy. It's not from my experience. 

2. OK, the 4.5 gen claim aside, which i think is silly for any fighter to be called that, you do realize that as a complete weapons system, Rafale falls far short on many of the capabilities commonly found in "4th Gen" fighters like say a modern Mig-29 or F-15. That isn't even debatable. For instance, Mig-29 HAS an IR sensor that works and HMS. F-15 has a working AESA option and laser designator. Any of these could be had RIGHT NOW. Any thoughts on that?

3. It's also interesting that you call the F-35 a "paper" plane and you say the Typhoon is nowhere close to Rafale when the F-35 is being set to be produced at the rate of 1 F-35 per day compared to 1 Rafale per month. The Typhoon has export sales and multiple users with development, production and operational use moving steadily along. By comparison the Rafale is struggling to get past IOC. Do you not acknowledge that? Nationalism aside thats just the way things are and any aviation enthusiast can see that. 



BW, I realize the potential of the Rafale and I actually like it as a concept. It's potential to replace so many platform types. It's capability as a multirole fighter including naval air. The gracefulness of it's appearance. Heck, just the fact that it's an indigenous design and fully competitive with other modern fighters once it finally matures. But the fact is BW that maturity is still not here and by anyone's standards it's long over due. I mean F-22, F-18E, Typhoon, Gripen, Mig-29, Su-27 and soon the F-35. All were conceived roughly around the same time and all are moving along. Considering that, I don't think it can be denied with any credibility.

-DA 
 
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DropBear       3/9/2009 11:43:28 PM
We had so many threads about the Rafale that it 's really annoying to repeat everything again and I will not .
 
Quite right.
 
Most of the commentary regarding the Rafale seemed to inundate any thread with the word Hornet in the title. Go figure!
 
http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emcrook.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" alt="" />
 
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Phaid       3/10/2009 12:30:49 AM
Too busy to read everything at the moment, but this caught my eye:
 
""10 - tiny radar aperture (550mm) insufficient for an air superiority fighter and limits radar performance regardless of future AESA.""
 
BS . The F-16 's nose is 20% smaller than the Rafale 's nose and our AESA will bring 50% more range . Where is the problem ???
 
Incorrect.  Radars in F-16 models are about 740 x 480 mm, hardly smaller than the RBE2.  And every other Western fighter the Rafale tries to compete with has a larger array, anywhere from 700mm to 1 meter.  The only fighter currently in production with a smaller radar than the Rafale is the Gripen.
 
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VelocityVector       3/10/2009 2:07:20 AM

May God Bless this thread and Tiny Tim too.  Yip.

v^2

 
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leroy       3/10/2009 3:23:01 AM
I love how his answer to every different major shortcoming is to say "oh we could do that right away if we wanted to!"
 
"Btw , # 2 and #3 can be mounted on the aircraft in matter of hours in case of emergency . "
 
Oh really?  You could "mount" your not yet out of R&D laser designator and AESA in a matter of hours?  Even if we assumed the prototype hardware worked as designed(extremely optimistic, that is why this equipment is still in development)... where does that leave the rest of your Rafale fleet?

"True , but the CAPTOR ~while having a better range~ does NOT have the capabilities of the PESA RBE2  . The AESA will clearly put the CAPTOR into dark ages ."
 
No it won't, the AESA RBE-2 is just a new antenna on an old radar.  It will gain range and some flexibility, but it won't have anything like the full range of capabilities seen in purpose-built AESA radars.  (It will be similar to the AESA upgrades we were putting in F-15Cs for a while, just a new front-end with an old back-end.  We have since recognized that that isn't a great solution.)
 
"Since no other 4th generation Fighter has a remotly comparable capability , the Rafale is still ahead ."
 
Of course they do dimwit, they just don't have cool marketing names like "spectra."
 
"True but it is our usual funding problems and the crisis coming from the fuck**g Yankees is not going to help ."
 
LOL, "Yankees" caused your funding problems? That is a new one...  If you were already having problems getting spare parts last fall... you guys must really be in trouble now.
 
"No need . Towed decoys are a burden ."
 
lol, what do experts around the world know that you don't?  (Ok, lots... but lets not go there)  Even a fanboy can understand why towed decoys are an attractive option.  As usual you just don't want to. 
 
"That is not Rafale 's mission for now . Our Carbone system can be adapted to the Rafale in no time if needed ."
 
Right, no problem just throwing together a state-of-the-art standoff jammer, integrating it, and taking it into combat.  "no time" indeed... the Carbone pod is barely even a marketing brochure at this point. 
 
"Which are already good enough for the job at hand ." 
 
Sure, as long as that job is bombing Afghanistan.
 
"The Pod exists and can be mounted on the Rafale very quickly if needed ."
 
Just like all the rest of your favorite plane's capabilities... you would have some extremely busy engineers in a crisis wouldn't you?  

"True but the AASM makes up for it for now ."
 
No it doesn't.  
 
"The Typhoon is nowhere close to the Rafale and the F-35 is still a paper plane ."
 
The Typhoon is a whole heck of a lot farther along than the Rafale, and pulling away.
 
The F-35 is a paper plane?  Just like your AESA, laser designator, standoff jammer, HMS, etc etc etc.
 
The F-35 will be operational long before the Rafale gets most of the capabilities you claim could be ready "very quickly if needed."
 

 
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sentinel28a       3/10/2009 5:03:27 AM










It's not fair to bait Blue Wings, like this....really.







 







It's like starting a thread entitled, "The Brilliance of William Halsey" or "Why General Kulik is the REAL Hero of the Great Patriotic War."  It's just Herald Bait...you shouldn't do the same thing to BW.














What're you talking about?  Halsey was brilliant!  (Just not off Samar in October 1944.)






*ducks*







http://www.medpagetoday.com/images/blogMedia/drrob/Captain%20Obvious%20evil%20scientist%202.jpg" width="496" />

 

Its a joke, but you know as well as I do, we have the evidence that this useless braggart who had a penchant for chasing obvious decoys, sending better men and more able commanders than him to their deaths to retrieve his tactical mistakes, and this press happy racist bigot, was the WORST of our Pacific commanders.   

 

End of the Halsey topic. 


 

Herald
You and I will have to debate this in another thread.  *raises battle flags*
Assuming that the Rafale doesn't have adequate ECM protection, I wonder if the French will be looking at Growlers anytime soon for the AN Rafales.

 
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HERALD1357    If the MdM had any desire to assure capability?    3/10/2009 7:16:24 AM





















It's not fair to bait Blue Wings, like this....really.















 















It's like starting a thread entitled, "The Brilliance of William Halsey" or "Why General Kulik is the REAL Hero of the Great Patriotic War."  It's just Herald Bait...you shouldn't do the same thing to BW.






























What're you talking about?  Halsey was brilliant!  (Just not off Samar in October 1944.)














*ducks*

















http://www.medpagetoday.com/images/blogMedia/drrob/Captain%20Obvious%20evil%20scientist%202.jpg" width="496" height="500" />



 



Its a joke, but you know as well as I do, we have the evidence that this useless braggart who had a penchant for chasing obvious decoys, sending better men and more able commanders than him to their deaths to retrieve his tactical mistakes, and this press happy racist bigot, was the WORST of our Pacific commanders.   



 



End of the Halsey topic. 






 



Herald

You and I will have to debate this in another thread.  *raises battle flags*


Assuming that the Rafale doesn't have adequate ECM protection, I wonder if the French will be looking at Growlers anytime soon for the AN Rafales.




They'd correct their biggest mistake, build some more high quality subs, and SCUTTLE the Charles de Gaulle. Slapping a new EW plane on a nuclear powered target tow sled isn't going to help much.
 
Herald
 
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gf0012-aust       3/10/2009 7:57:40 AM

The Typhoon is nowhere close to the Rafale and the F-35 is still a paper plane .

ROFLMAO .  Seen how many Typhoon customers there are lately.

BTW, I attended the JSF briefing today and the first 4 USN JSF's are on the line.  3 are close to completion.  The STOL undergoes tether tests in 3 months.  2009 is where all the 9 countries and 13 customers make up their minds.  I'm betting that there will be more confirmation of orders for JSF in 2009 than Rafale gets by end 2011.  Esp considering that 3 foreign buyers have embedded staff in Forth Worth and are actively integrating other systems on behalf of all.

as another note GAO who were almost idealogically opposed (because they incorrectly based assumptions of F-22, F15 or F/A-18 production parameters ) have changed their minds and indicated that the plane has met all claims and have been 3-5% above the predictions.  IOW, JSF development is outperforming.

Rafale is in production and has how many foreign orders?  it can't even get a footprint into the EU (funnily enough, Typhoon has and is performing well, as is Gripen)

but, lets see at the end of 2009 where JSF sits and where Rafale has gone (even with a head start.)  I for one will be gloating. 
 
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Softwar    4th Gen shadow of Mirage   3/10/2009 9:00:34 AM

We had so many threads about the Rafale that it 's really annoying to repeat everything again and I will not .

So briefly :

""1 - no export sales

2 - no laser designator

3 - no AESA


4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter""

 

True with #1 , 2 and 3 and France is working on it . The #4 is not correct .


Btw , # 2 and #3 can be mounted on the aircraft in matter of hours in case of emergency . 

 


BW - first a bit of non-thread related news - you seem to bust into EVERY other fighter thread - from Spad to Raptor - with some argument about Rafale.  Once you bust in - the thread quickly degenerates into an insult contest.  The reason why I started this thread is to try an restrict you to the subject at hand - not Raptor, not Hornet, not F-15, not Flanker, not Falcon but Rafale and its more than obvious shortcomings.  Thus, the other threads can progress on their topics unhindered by the flag waving.
 
Second, your evaluation of the situation regarding Rafale appears to be so far off base as to bring your mental reasoning into question.  We all have read the poorly constructed arguments that you have lost again and again over radar, detection, weapon systems and tactics.  This time I note that your fascination with a failed jet figther has clouded your judgement.
 
For example, the claim that you are "working on it", saying you can mount AESA and Laser designator systems in a matter of "hours" is pure fiction.  The claim is so far from reality as to make me wonder what parts of engineering and physics do you not understand?  Just mounting these systems will take weeks of work and months of testing much less trying to train operational pilots in their use.  You clearly have no understanding of the complexity that such radical avionics packages place upon integration into the aircraft, pilot and crews.
 
Of course, if you had a plane that was being produced at a rate of more than 1/2 an airframe a month it *might* make a difference and shave off a few days but you don't.  The US will produce more F-35 production models in the first half of 2009 than Dassault will make of its 4th gen Rafale all year.
 
Don't get upset at me about Paris and your defense budget - we have zero to do with it short of helping your Navy keep carrier qualified pilots (e.g. landing the Rafale on an operational US carrier while the CdG is laid up).  If anything you should be grateful we dedicated our funding to help out.  It would appear here that your grace in regards to us helping the French Navy pilots stay sharp in carrier landings is ... much like Rafale... a little short.
 
I love your 4.5 gen comments - its almost as if you believe it.  If anyone else believed it - then you would have an export order.  Marketing factors aside - the fact remains - Rafale is a 4th gen fighter with limited capability and a limited production run.  It is a footnote in aviation history living in the shadow of the Mirage.
 
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JFKY    If I might suggest   3/10/2009 9:56:26 AM
...one way to view the Rafale, from this not expert view, is to think of it as the P-40, Warhawk.  The P-40 is a good plane or a dog...depending on where, when and against whom it was flying.  Certainly it was no P-51 or P-47, but it wasn't a bad plane, at all.  And it made significant contributions to winning the Second World War.  It just wasn't GREAT...It was adequate for it's time and place, though it was a very pretty plane.
 
It seems that the Rafale fills that role, here...it is adequate.  It is pretty...it may not be a F-22 or a Typhoon, but in it's place and time, it will get the job done.
 
For Heaven's Sake BW, give it up, it seems obvious that Rafale is NOT anything but an adequate plane...Hey the P-40 did its part in ending the threat of Fascism and Japanese Militarism...it just wasn't an outstanding a/c, as compared to others in the same era and role.
 
And please, stop talking about how Capability "X" could be added in a matter of hours...even I don't buy that...so you could add an ASEA radar in a matter of hours...so you have dozens of them just sitting around, uninstalled...but you could retrofit and upgrade your entire force in just a matter of hours?  I had a foreman once who liked to say, "Tell lies small enough that you'll believe'em."  Really no one is likely to believe that France has dozens of radars, designating pods, or ECM sets just sitting around, lacking on the impetus to mount them.  It just cannot be....
 
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