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Subject: The Rafale's First Red Flag
Phaid    9/3/2008 5:22:21 PM
This is my translation of a new article from TTU Online: hxxp://www.ttu.fr/francais/Articles/rafaleredflag.html The Rafale's First Red Flag For the armée de l'air, two years after its official entry into service at Saint Dizier, the summer of 2008 was the first opportunity to fully test the Rafale in the context of a large-scale war gaming exercise in the Nevada desert, which came at the conclusion of a long journey journey across the American continent following a crossing of the Atlantic via the Azores. Planned for a year and a half, the goal of Red Flag is to prepare the French air forces for tactical interoperability. The armée de l'air has taken part in Red Flag on a regular basis since 1981, and nearly all of its combat aircraft types have participated. This time, it was the Rafale's turn, as a prelude to the participation of the Mirage F1CT/CR this fall in Green Flag -- a CAS exercise smaller in scale than Red Flag but which prepares forces for missions currently being undertaken in Afghanistan. And so, from the 7th to the 22nd August, a detachment of four Rafales from the fighter squadron 1/7 "Provence", based in Saint-Dizier, accompanied by a C-135FR tanker, spent ten days taking part in the fourth Red Flag of 2008, certainly the most demanding -- the closest thing to real war, they say -- for a Western pilot. The detachment of 85 personnel, under the command of colonel Philippe Poireault, the team's leader, and of the lieutenant colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, commander of the 1/7, consisted in all of fourteen pilotes, six navigators, an intelligence officer, and 39 mechanics. The detachment consisted of two teams; one for missions during the day and one for missions at night. The roster was rounded out by air commandos responsible for the security of the aircraft. Taking place immediately following a 10-day base exchange at Luke Air Force Base with F-16s and personnel of the USAF's 309th TFS, the goal of the Rafale's first Red Flag was to compare the Rafale, which the squadron has been flying for two years, with combat aircraft of the same generation (called the 4th generation): F-15Es of the USAFE, F-15Ks of the RoKAF, F-15 and F-16 Aggressors, and Su-30MKIs of the IAF. It should be noted that half of the French participants had participated in the Afghan theater in recent months. The four Rafale from the 1/7 (numbers 317, 320, 321, and 325) were all two-seaters, of the F2+ standard (and thus very recent), with a total "swing role" capability and whose simulated armament was composed of Mica IR/EM AAMs and rocket-propelled inertially guided AASM/GPS weapons. The missions were supported by the SLPRM (the SAGEM local mission planning and replay system, a mission-planning computer system). During the ten days of Red Flag, the Rafale Bs undertook a total of four sorties per day, each averaging two hours (1 day strike and 1 night strike), as part of a Blue Air strike package consisting in general of fifty to sixty aircraft. This took place in outside temperatures above 45°C, nearly identical to conditions in Kandahar, Afghanistan. These temperatures were in fact more taxing on the crews and maintainers than on the aircraft; the M88's power reserve at takeoff assuring comfortable levels of thrust at the beginnings of the missions. The aircraft were normally equipped with three large supersonic external tanks of 1200 liters to mimic a heavy war load. The primary preoccupation of the armée de l'air in coming to Nellis AFB with the Rafale was first to verify the proper integration of the aircraft and its systems in a dense and complex environment of allied aircraft, notably with the participation of EA-6B electronic warfare aircraft and F-16CJs performing SEAD. General Jean-Pierre Martin, commander of the combat air forces, who even participated in one of the last Rafale B missions over the Nellis range (which is as large as the territory of Switzerland!) during the August Red Flag, commented: "After a year and a half of preparation, the system is in operational service and has been utilised in operatiosn which demonstrates that the capabilities of the aircraft are at the desired level. The Rafale behaved itself very well and fulfilled its part of the missions, and even did so easily thanks to the combination of its sensors and its networking systems (link 16). We can say that, for the first time, in contrast to previous exercises involving Jaguars or Mirage F1s or 2000, the French flew at Red Flag on an aircraft of comparable generation which had nothing to envy those of its American, Korean, and Indian comrades." Also taking into account the mission profiles undertaken in a theater saturated with surface-to-air and air-to-air threats, the Rafale also very well demonstr5ated its capacity to penetrate enemy air defenses thanks to its very capable weapon system to which the new AASM bomb is not a stranger. In fact, if the different participants were not particula
 
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gf0012-aust       9/15/2008 3:28:15 AM



First (just to make things clear) , it is a legend that a radar can see a screw or a bolt at 10km , so at 60nm and over ...

seeing that you have decided that you want to attack my knowledge base and question my competency, then perhaps you can go out and do some additional research yourself.
 
here's a tip from "The Radar Game, Understanding Stealth Aircraft and Survivability"
 
"Traveling waves create challenges on the shop floor and in future maintenance, too. As one Lockheed F-117 engineer put it, ?we couldn?t allow even the tiniest imperfection in the fit of the landing gear door, for example, that could triple the airplane?s RCS if it wasn?t precisely flush with the body.? Any protrusions, such as small fairings, grills, domes, and wingtips, can project radar waves back to the sender. Even rivets and fasteners can act as radar reflectors."
 
Cross reference that hilighted line with commentary in "Bandits over Bagdhad" of how the RCS profile was raised when the retractable antennas did not seat fully (and it was discovered that it was akin to being the same profile as a "proud" rivet.)
 
Now that youn have elected to demonstrate trollish behaviour towards me then I feel no compunction in maintaining civility to you.
 
ANYONE - and I mean ANYONE who has had any involvement with signature management will tell you how wavelength in aerodynamics is effected by protrusions on an aircraft - the fact that you say it's BS shows that you have absolutely no ferking idea about the subject matter.  Make the effort to read about Have Blue, Tacit Blue and Senior Trend and what they discovered about wavelength impact on aircraft surfaces.
 
If you don't want to listen to people who do actually have an operational clue in signature management - then buy yourself a credible book.  Start with:
 
Introduction to RF Stealth
David Lynch, Jr.
Hardcover, 560 pages
ISBN10: 1891121219
ISBN13: 9781891121210

Publisher: SciTech Publishing, 
 
It's the most useful  $80 you'll spend and maybe you'll learn to actually be humble and appreciate that there are a number of people in here who might just know a tad more than you pretend to do.
 
I leave you to your fantasy of arguing that the rafale is a clean design  - esp when everyone saw the image posted of that appalling picture of Rafale saw tooth panelling (where even the seams were bubbling.)
 
and fyi, just as you don't give a FF about what the RAAF assessment team thinks of Rafale - neither do I give a FF about a plane that has yet to demonstrate autonomous delivery (yes it needs an assist), doesn't have a modern radar system, doesn't have the onboard power, doesn't have a sale even when offered to third world countries at a discounted french govt subsidised rate.
 
I leave the others to exercise more patience with you - but I am done with you. 
 
If you behave like a troll - you get treated like a troll.
 
 
 
 




 
 
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Softwar       9/15/2008 10:09:58 AM

Exemple : if you ever elect Mc Cain and the stupid man wants to "force" China (?) or Russia to give way to the American supremacy (?) , I will give my vote to help China and/or Russia . After all , it 's the AMERICAN people who would have elected a far right wanker taunted with fascism .

BW - you wrote your post - live with it.  It was anti-American and it clearly showed that you would cheer if America was nuked.  I feel that such postings have no place here.  Thus, you now rank alongside Mith and others who eventually left SP because of their US bashing.
Of course, you also show your bad taste and ignorance by associating either one of our Presidential candidates with fascism.  FYI - McCain's father and grand father fought facism in World War II - of course you seem to ignore that little detail.
 
Finally, after so many respected SP posters here have trashed the absolute fiction you continue to flog on Rafale - I think its a real pity because it is a fine jet - for France.  The US did help out greatly - after all - the initial carrier land trials took place at Lakehurst NJ.  You do the great pilots and servicemen who work with the Rafale a great dis-service by continuing to post falsehoods.

 
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DarthAmerica       9/15/2008 11:22:44 AM
This is why I said so long ago to ignore this guy. He is an irrelevancy and any discussion with him lowers the quality of a thread as he'll flood it with absolute nonsense about the topic and himself. I've been around enough subject matter experts to know they don't behave like this. He is not worth the time and frankly I would not be surprised to find out that he is just some young kid. Either that or a really really ignorant adult. Either way he hasn't earned any of the attention he has been getting. Posters like Him and Herc should simply be ignored IMHO. They only do this for the attention and if not catered to they usually die of neglect. Except in BW case I sense some psychological need to promote anything French made above all else. But that's his problem not ours IMV.
 
Behave like a troll, tream 'em like a troll. Make him post quality and earn a response otherwise screw him. Who cares what some idiot thinks on the internet. Heck, some people believe in Santa Claus too but we would not debate it. So why are we dignifying this nonsense?
 
-DA

 
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RockyMTNClimber    Darth reply   9/15/2008 12:00:28 PM

This is why I said so long ago to ignore this guy. He is an irrelevancy and any discussion with him lowers the quality of a thread as he'll flood it with absolute nonsense about the topic and himself. I've been around enough subject matter experts to know they don't behave like this. He is not worth the time and frankly I would not be surprised to find out that he is just some young kid. Either that or a really really ignorant adult. Either way he hasn't earned any of the attention he has been getting. Posters like Him and Herc should simply be ignored IMHO. They only do this for the attention and if not catered to they usually die of neglect. Except in BW case I sense some psychological need to promote anything French made above all else. But that's his problem not ours IMV.
 
Behave like a troll, tream 'em like a troll. Make him post quality and earn a response otherwise screw him. Who cares what some idiot thinks on the internet. Heck, some people believe in Santa Claus too but we would not debate it. So why are we dignifying this nonsense?
-DA



Darth, 
Apologies and agreement. The best thing to do with people like this is ignore them. Leave them to their unfortunate state of mind and say a prayer that they may wake up and smell their psychosis. I really don't know why but people who drip this kind of religious, nationalist, and racial bigotry just really tick me off.
 
I will join you and GF in ignoring him hence forth.
 
Hope all is well in the sand box.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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DarthAmerica    Rocky Reply   9/15/2008 12:14:37 PM




This is why I said so long ago to ignore this guy. He is an irrelevancy and any discussion with him lowers the quality of a thread as he'll flood it with absolute nonsense about the topic and himself. I've been around enough subject matter experts to know they don't behave like this. He is not worth the time and frankly I would not be surprised to find out that he is just some young kid. Either that or a really really ignorant adult. Either way he hasn't earned any of the attention he has been getting. Posters like Him and Herc should simply be ignored IMHO. They only do this for the attention and if not catered to they usually die of neglect. Except in BW case I sense some psychological need to promote anything French made above all else. But that's his problem not ours IMV.

 

Behave like a troll, tream 'em like a troll. Make him post quality and earn a response otherwise screw him. Who cares what some idiot thinks on the internet. Heck, some people believe in Santa Claus too but we would not debate it. So why are we dignifying this nonsense?


-DA









Darth, 

Apologies and agreement. The best thing to do with people like this is ignore them. Leave them to their unfortunate state of mind and say a prayer that they may wake up and smell their psychosis. I really don't know why but people who drip this kind of religious, nationalist, and racial bigotry just really tick me off.

 

I will join you and GF in ignoring him hence forth.

 

Hope all is well in the sand box.

 

Check Six

 

Rocky


Thanks but no more sandbox for me! I've been back a month or so now. Only sand I see now would be in Long Beach...lol. Hope all is well for you too!
 
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Softwar    Amen!   9/15/2008 12:59:51 PM




This is why I said so long ago to ignore this guy. He is an irrelevancy and any discussion with him lowers the quality of a thread as he'll flood it with absolute nonsense about the topic and himself. I've been around enough subject matter experts to know they don't behave like this. He is not worth the time and frankly I would not be surprised to find out that he is just some young kid. Either that or a really really ignorant adult. Either way he hasn't earned any of the attention he has been getting. Posters like Him and Herc should simply be ignored IMHO. They only do this for the attention and if not catered to they usually die of neglect. Except in BW case I sense some psychological need to promote anything French made above all else. But that's his problem not ours IMV.

 

Behave like a troll, tream 'em like a troll. Make him post quality and earn a response otherwise screw him. Who cares what some idiot thinks on the internet. Heck, some people believe in Santa Claus too but we would not debate it. So why are we dignifying this nonsense?


-DA









Darth, 

Apologies and agreement. The best thing to do with people like this is ignore them. Leave them to their unfortunate state of mind and say a prayer that they may wake up and smell their psychosis. I really don't know why but people who drip this kind of religious, nationalist, and racial bigotry just really tick me off.

 

I will join you and GF in ignoring him hence forth.

 

Hope all is well in the sand box.

 

Check Six

 

Rocky



Ditto on the racked off points above - I shall join you gentlemen and from hence forth - ignore him.
 
Softwar
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Thank you....   9/15/2008 1:33:40 PM
Thanks but no more sandbox for me! I've been back a month or so now. Only sand I see now would be in Long Beach...lol. Hope all is well for you too!

Thank you for your service over there. Your comments and perspective were appreciated and I think we all noticed some subtle shifts in your outlook on some of the subjects debated here on Strategy Page. Talking to veterans about what is going on over there is absolutely essential to developing a picture of our national adventures in the ME for those of US who have not served.
 
Get some babes, sun, and adult beverages. You deserve them.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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Phaid       9/15/2008 6:48:00 PM


Thanks but no more sandbox for me! I've been back a month or so now. Only sand I see now would be in Long Beach...lol. Hope all is well for you too!

 
Great to hear you're back safe and sound, and hopefully enjoying some R&R.  And most of all -- thank you!
 
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Softwar    Thank You DarthAmerica   9/15/2008 7:05:01 PM





Thanks but no more sandbox for me! I've been back a month or so now. Only sand I see now would be in Long Beach...lol. Hope all is well for you too!


Welcome back and thank you for all you have done and continue to do.
 
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DarthAmerica       9/16/2008 3:22:44 AM
Thanks all I appreciate the well wishes. I really don't know what to say. I'll share this though. When I arrived back in the USA I got stuck on the East Coast for a few days due to weather. The first people to great us were Viet Nam Vets and Volunteers who told us they wanted to be sure we were greeted properly and one of the civilians told us how honored he was to serve us our first meal cooked on US soil. He said he knew that our families would have loved to have that honor and he was glad to be able to do it first. Civilians from the average John Doe to Cops and even a Russian American who actually served in the Red Army during the Soviet-Afghan war. I sat next to him on a plane on my way back to the West Coast and it was so crazy sitting there in my ACUs talking to a former Soviet Soldier and current American Citizen about that part of the world and events in Georgia. I'm rambling on now so to sum it up I had a good homecoming and I hope that we as a nation never backslide away from that. It matters.

Anyway, all this Rafale nonsense is hilarious.  You know, its not a bad plane in theory. Too bad things werent managed better. The Cold War ending the way it did really hurt programs like Rafale. Considering what France was flying before it is really a big technological leap. It made France competitive with other modern nations in terms of 4th Gen fighters. If the funding was there who knows how things would have turned out. But thats just not the way it is. With things rapidly evolving from a technological point of view its going to be very tough for the Rafale to remain viable as a 1st class warplane in the not too distant future. Physics is physics and one must understand inherent design limits. Engineering is about choices and choices are based on requirements. The Rafale was designed to be a late 1980's-1990's platform integrated into that era's defense architectures. It was not designed to be the F-35 or an equivilent. Nor can it be ultimately. The F-22, F-35 and heck even late model F-15s and the Super Hornet are setting todays engineering benchmark challenges. Not to mention ground based IADS continue to evolve in very dangerous directions. Combine this with modern long range trike solutions and its clear that outside of facing off against 2nd teir threats the Rafales viability isn't going to be very easy to maintain and certainly not on the cheap.
 
Fortunately, most likely opponents would be hard pressed to stand against the FAF which is more than capable of holding it's own. Red Flag allows the FAF to refine it's TTPs with the Rafale. But things change and it is why France needs to consider it's post Rafale future very carefully and they need to do it soon. Hanging METEOR off the wings, squeezing an AESA in that small nose will only do so much. Also folks who think nEUROn is then answer need to look a bit more into what nEUROn will do and WONT DO compared to what the Rafale does and needs to do.
 
-DA

 
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