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Subject: The Rafale's First Red Flag
Phaid    9/3/2008 5:22:21 PM
This is my translation of a new article from TTU Online: hxxp://www.ttu.fr/francais/Articles/rafaleredflag.html The Rafale's First Red Flag For the armée de l'air, two years after its official entry into service at Saint Dizier, the summer of 2008 was the first opportunity to fully test the Rafale in the context of a large-scale war gaming exercise in the Nevada desert, which came at the conclusion of a long journey journey across the American continent following a crossing of the Atlantic via the Azores. Planned for a year and a half, the goal of Red Flag is to prepare the French air forces for tactical interoperability. The armée de l'air has taken part in Red Flag on a regular basis since 1981, and nearly all of its combat aircraft types have participated. This time, it was the Rafale's turn, as a prelude to the participation of the Mirage F1CT/CR this fall in Green Flag -- a CAS exercise smaller in scale than Red Flag but which prepares forces for missions currently being undertaken in Afghanistan. And so, from the 7th to the 22nd August, a detachment of four Rafales from the fighter squadron 1/7 "Provence", based in Saint-Dizier, accompanied by a C-135FR tanker, spent ten days taking part in the fourth Red Flag of 2008, certainly the most demanding -- the closest thing to real war, they say -- for a Western pilot. The detachment of 85 personnel, under the command of colonel Philippe Poireault, the team's leader, and of the lieutenant colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, commander of the 1/7, consisted in all of fourteen pilotes, six navigators, an intelligence officer, and 39 mechanics. The detachment consisted of two teams; one for missions during the day and one for missions at night. The roster was rounded out by air commandos responsible for the security of the aircraft. Taking place immediately following a 10-day base exchange at Luke Air Force Base with F-16s and personnel of the USAF's 309th TFS, the goal of the Rafale's first Red Flag was to compare the Rafale, which the squadron has been flying for two years, with combat aircraft of the same generation (called the 4th generation): F-15Es of the USAFE, F-15Ks of the RoKAF, F-15 and F-16 Aggressors, and Su-30MKIs of the IAF. It should be noted that half of the French participants had participated in the Afghan theater in recent months. The four Rafale from the 1/7 (numbers 317, 320, 321, and 325) were all two-seaters, of the F2+ standard (and thus very recent), with a total "swing role" capability and whose simulated armament was composed of Mica IR/EM AAMs and rocket-propelled inertially guided AASM/GPS weapons. The missions were supported by the SLPRM (the SAGEM local mission planning and replay system, a mission-planning computer system). During the ten days of Red Flag, the Rafale Bs undertook a total of four sorties per day, each averaging two hours (1 day strike and 1 night strike), as part of a Blue Air strike package consisting in general of fifty to sixty aircraft. This took place in outside temperatures above 45°C, nearly identical to conditions in Kandahar, Afghanistan. These temperatures were in fact more taxing on the crews and maintainers than on the aircraft; the M88's power reserve at takeoff assuring comfortable levels of thrust at the beginnings of the missions. The aircraft were normally equipped with three large supersonic external tanks of 1200 liters to mimic a heavy war load. The primary preoccupation of the armée de l'air in coming to Nellis AFB with the Rafale was first to verify the proper integration of the aircraft and its systems in a dense and complex environment of allied aircraft, notably with the participation of EA-6B electronic warfare aircraft and F-16CJs performing SEAD. General Jean-Pierre Martin, commander of the combat air forces, who even participated in one of the last Rafale B missions over the Nellis range (which is as large as the territory of Switzerland!) during the August Red Flag, commented: "After a year and a half of preparation, the system is in operational service and has been utilised in operatiosn which demonstrates that the capabilities of the aircraft are at the desired level. The Rafale behaved itself very well and fulfilled its part of the missions, and even did so easily thanks to the combination of its sensors and its networking systems (link 16). We can say that, for the first time, in contrast to previous exercises involving Jaguars or Mirage F1s or 2000, the French flew at Red Flag on an aircraft of comparable generation which had nothing to envy those of its American, Korean, and Indian comrades." Also taking into account the mission profiles undertaken in a theater saturated with surface-to-air and air-to-air threats, the Rafale also very well demonstr5ated its capacity to penetrate enemy air defenses thanks to its very capable weapon system to which the new AASM bomb is not a stranger. In fact, if the different participants were not particula
 
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Phaid       9/14/2008 11:37:07 AM
Because it has EASA antennas able to use a pencil beam for stealth jamming (no broadcasting) , then I also think that the system in itself is better with also a better defensive software (Logiciel de Defense) . Then it also uses real time holographic processing . None of it is present on the SH defensive suite .
 
There is no support for it having "better software", and there is absolutely zero support for your holographic fantasies.  The ability to use directed jamming is nice, but it is far from universal - all RF antennas are restricted to a specific frequency range.  Further, Spectra has a very small number of very small phased-array emitters.  Those will have limited power and limited coverage -- phased arrays are limited because, while they can steer their beams, their emitted power falls off rapidly as the angle increases.  Spectra's jammers will have far from uniform coverage and definitely not have spherical coverage.
 
Conventional jammers use multiple types of antennas depending on the threat they are countering.  If (IF) Spectra can deal with other frequency ranges, it has to use other sets of antennas.  Where are those?
 
Which brings me to your post about the APG-79 . It is certainly a major step toward integrated countermesures used in the X-Band through an AESA dish . If we restrict the discussion to A2A warfare , it is probably the "la crème de la crème" for jamming other Fighters . Unfortunatly , it only works within the X-Band radar .
You still need something else to jam the ground radars and multiple SAMs which are not usuing the X-Band .

A separate internal system able to precisely jam in all radar Bands is the best for the task , if that system is coupled to the one you 're talking about , it makes the Aircraft a real pain in the a** to deal with.

The ALQ-214 on the F/A-18E/F has its own, separate emitters in the airframe to handle a wide range of frequencies.  Those were already part of the ALQ-214(v)2.  Those emitters can jam in high, mid, and low frequency ranges, although only at shorter ranges like the emitters on Spectra.  The ALQ-214(v)3 added the ALE-55 FOTD, which handles the same frequencies and has the advantage of defeating HOJ threats.
 
Nevertheless, X-band is the most useful range for a fighter to jam.  Fighter radars all use X band, and most SAM targeting radars do as well.  For example, everybody's favorite threat SAM system, the S-300, uses X-band radar for targeting, as do Roland, SA-6, SA-11, SA-12, and a host of others. The ability to deny SAM targeting and to render yourself invisible to fighter radars -- at extremely long ranges -- is pretty nice.

As it stands , the PESA RBE2 on the Rafale can 't do that because it is only a Passive ESA (no jamming possible) , but we do have SPECTRA . When the RBE2 AESA will be fielded , we 'll have both capabilities .
 
Not without a massive software rework and hardware modifications to couple the Spectra modules with the radar emitters.  The RBE2 currently has absolutely no ability to do this, and the AESA RBE2 is supposed to be a drop-in replacement for the current RBE2.  Adding a similar capability to what the ALQ-214 + APG-79 can do is another task entirely.
 
""Couple that with a DRFM techniques generator like the ALQ-214, and you have a very powerful and capable jamming system that is second only to dedicated jamming aircraft like the Prowler and Growler.""
 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    When will this p*ss ant biggot be removed from these boards?   9/14/2008 2:21:36 PM
One day will come when the Great China will wake up and declare a total War on the United States . The only winner will be Europe and possibly India if the Indians stay quiet . We ~Europeans~ have been there for 3000 years and we 'll last even longer , no worries . And its not the F-22 Raptor who 's going to save you from the Chinese nuclear fire .

Hey bluing, been drinking again? Shall we post your other charming ideas? Are we now adding your opinion of the USA to your thoughts on Jews and Arabs?
ht***tp://strategypage.com/militaryforums/30-90040.aspx
Really , what do we ~westerners~ care about that old fight ? We all agreed that the US need a ground Base in M-E to help and rescue Israel but the main question was somewhere else : Why do WE give a sh*t about Israel ???
Is Israel helps mankind to be better ?
Certainly not .
Do we care about them to be wipped out by the Arabs ?
Certainly not .
Do we care about Arabs getting wipped out by the Jews ?
Certainly not .
So , what 's the fu**ing point ???
Let them kill each other to no end and the World will be a better place
 
From Sysops1 on that same board:
    ht***tp://strategypage.com/militaryforums/30-90040.aspx
After proper and due consideration of Bluewing12 and the former bluewing's posts, and the nature of comments over the years, we have yanked his posting privileges for his antiSemitic comments. Whether he was pumped up from alchohol or not is no excuse, and he's made comments on these boards before, though not so vile.  If he was so drunk that he had a Mel Gibson moment, then he had no business posting without being able to control his feelings.   Seems his true feelings came out, and we wont tolerate that on these boards.
 
He's out. Should he return, all of his prior posts will be permanently deleted. We don't need his type of enlightened opinion on these boards.
After proper and due consideration of Bluewing12 and the former bluewing's posts, and the nature of comments over the years, we have yanked his posting privileges for his antiSemitic comments. Whether he was pumped up from alchohol or not is no excuse, and he's made comments on these boards before, though not so vile.  If he was so drunk that he had a Mel Gibson moment, then he had no business posting without being able to control his feelings.   Seems his true feelings came out, and we wont tolerate that on these boards.
 
He's out. Should he return, all of his prior posts will be permanently deleted. We don't need his type of enlightened opinion on these boards.
 
Enough is enough.
 
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Bluewings12       9/14/2008 5:47:05 PM
Rocky ... You really want me to be banned , don 't you ?  Unfortunatly for you , if one day I do get banned , it 's going to be my deed and not yours so stop waving "glory" for nothing .
 
Now and for the last time , I did explain what my views are about the French use of our nuclear weapons , and it is not up to me . If you want to go personal , here is what I believe :
I do not wish any American to die . Is that clear enough ?
It really makes me laugh when you call me "anti-american" when I 've been working for an american company full of americans for 5 years , lol ! I go along with americans very well ~thank you~ and that since begining february 1982 when I first met your Marines in East Africa .
 
Now , if you want me to explain my thoughts when I wrote this post :
""One day will come when the Great China will wake up and declare a total War on the United States . The only winner will be Europe and possibly India if the Indians stay quiet . We ~Europeans~ have been there for 3000 years and we 'll last even longer , no worries . And its not the F-22 Raptor who 's going to save you from the Chinese nuclear fire .""
 
here is your answer :  I wish that my Country will always act for the goodness of the Human being and not just only follow a Friend when he is right or wrong . That goes for evey Nation I can think of and for every "Cause" I can think of .
Do I make myself clear ?
 
Exemple : if you ever elect Mc Cain and the stupid man wants to "force" China (?) or Russia to give way to the American supremacy (?) , I will give my vote to help China and/or Russia . After all , it 's the AMERICAN people who would have elected a far right wanker taunted with fascism .
But if the Americans fight again for a good cause , I will follow them with heart and guts .
 
Cheers .
 
 

 
 
 

 
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gf0012-aust    Bluewings   9/14/2008 6:04:38 PM
Fred, just to make it abundantly clear.
 
I don't have a problem with Rafale, but I have significant degrees of doubt over some of the claims you make re it's capability.
 
That's not based on some reactive need to defend other aircraft, but it is based on what I do know of sig management (and remember that in a number of areas fluid mechanics and aerodynamics are "kissing" cousins).
 
It's also because I do know of people tied up with the JSF program (they're a stones throw away from me),
I do know of the data supplied to RAAF re Rafale for the initial Tender , and I've dealt with companies that are suppliers and developers to elements of JSF (one of them also provided solutions to F-22).
 
So although I'm not going to spill my guts in here about actual sources, my sources have either operational or immediate intimacy of the capabilities of current 4th to 5th generation manned aircraft.
 
Perhaps you make claims in good faith, but some of the sig management claims are just nonsense, and to deliver on those claims would mean a revolution in power management (which we know France doesn't have or she'd be flogging whitepapers off everywhere - just like they do at Fuel Cell and Energy Conferences in Europe every year).
 
 
Is it a capable aircraft?  for France obviously, but as a manned holographic sensor platform in the manner described?  No.   Any sig claims made on an aircraft that dirty would be nugatory effort.
 

 
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Bluewings12       9/14/2008 6:21:13 PM
gf , stop your BS at once .
 
1) We all know what a DACT excercise is about , thank you . We also know who did well or not in the provided environment .
2) I don 't give a monkey about the RAAF and OZ military decisions in general (you should have taken the Challenger over the Abrams to start with and your SHs are not be the best choice either)
3) all your bla-bla about the poor sig management of the rafale is just that : bla-bla . Every picture I can have a look at shows how well made the airframe is . I could post dozens of picture where the Rafale is shown from up close , do you want me to post some , gf ?
4) The AESA antennas on the wing roots provide a 120deg coverage (horizontaly and verticaly) with a accuracy of less than 1deg . There is no other operational Fighter yet who has that capability .
5) The onboard power is PLENTY good enough thank you , because the Rafale has been build for an AESA radar and AESA internal jammers from day one .
 
Cheers .

 
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Bluewings12       9/14/2008 6:42:46 PM
gf , I 'm sorry if my last post was a bit harsh but you deserve it ;-)
 
Well :
""Is it a capable aircraft?  for France obviously, but as a manned holographic sensor platform in the manner described?  No.   Any sig claims made on an aircraft that dirty would be nugatory effort.""
 
Bloody hell !? I hate when you talk without knowing gf ! First of , the Rafale is certainly not "dirty" as you like to call it !
First (just to make things clear) , it is a legend that a radar can see a screw or a bolt at 10km , so at 60nm and over ...
This is NOT to defend the Rafale as it is a perfectly well built aircraft but just as a reminder .
Then , the Rafale is indeed using EM holographs to hide itself . It is not that hard to archive , you just need to be clever . We do have the technology (Bragg cells , MIMICS , Processors , AESA antennas , softwares to go with and good Pilots) .
 
Cheers .
 

 
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pti       9/14/2008 8:34:43 PM
You know I have lurked here a long time. Before bluewings first ban. He constantly likes to associate himself with the Steel Beasts team in a often juvenile attempt at bolstering his baseless fan boy assertions.
 
I wonder how the folks at Steel Beasts would feel about him associating himself with them if they were aware of his anti semitic comments, his anti American comments along the same lines,  his constant trolling, and bold face lies. 
 
I know as someone who payed an extraordinary amount of money for Steel Beast Pro E, I am not impressed that I supported a company that would hire such a dirtbag. Though I doubt they are aware of his true colors.
 
Given his propensity for posting absolute falsehoods on here, he may have no actual contact with the Steel Beasts team.  I do know he is active in the modding community because I have seen his name attached to downloads, but that may be as close as the poseur gets to Steel Beasts. 
 
It would not be difficult to contact the Steel Beast team about him, especially since the Technical Director is quite active in the  defence forum community.

 
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gf0012-aust       9/14/2008 10:30:58 PM

gf , I 'm sorry if my last post was a bit harsh but you deserve it ;-)


sorry fred, but if you are unable to engage without becoming base, then ignore my posts.
 
I have maintained civility and given you the benefit of doubt, but you clearly do not understand what I am talking about.
 
ignore my posts from now on as I will ignore yours.
 
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gf0012-aust       9/14/2008 10:36:28 PM

First (just to make things clear) , it is a legend that a radar can see a screw or a bolt at 10km , so at 60nm and over ...

absolute unmitigated rubbish.
 
read Bandits over Bagdhad which is written by F-117 pilots about their missions in Iraq.  You will see a number of clear examples of how the aircraft were spotted because antennas had not fully retracted.
 
in fact, there is a substantial body of evidence that supports how the change in LO algorithms enabled people like Ben Rich to change the sig profile by an order of magnitude.
 
That comment from you alone shows that you know bugger all about contemp sig management in LO/VLO  aircraft.
 

 
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gf0012-aust       9/14/2008 10:56:22 PM


First (just to make things clear) , it is a legend that a radar can see a screw or a bolt at 10km , so at 60nm and over ...

before you respond to this.  I suggest that you read the Have Blue and Tacit Blue histories (which have higher sig profiles than the F-22 and also regarded as higher than JSF.)
 
I'd also suggest that you do make the effort to read "Bandits  over Bagdhad" and see first hand how the F-117 (again now regarded as less sig superior than JSF and F-22) when panel rivets and collapsible antennas were sitting proud.
 
It would also be worth your while to read up on Ben Rich and his examples of how research aircraft were compromised when panel rivets were proud of the frame.  This again was with aircraft and CTD's that are now regarded as less sig transmission sophisticated than the current JSF and F-22
 
All of this isdocumented and supported by 3rd parties such as Saudi ATC's unable to see aircraft that were on short finals until they went comms live and erected the aircraft comms antennas.
 
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