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Subject: The Rafale's First Red Flag
Phaid    9/3/2008 5:22:21 PM
This is my translation of a new article from TTU Online: hxxp://www.ttu.fr/francais/Articles/rafaleredflag.html The Rafale's First Red Flag For the armée de l'air, two years after its official entry into service at Saint Dizier, the summer of 2008 was the first opportunity to fully test the Rafale in the context of a large-scale war gaming exercise in the Nevada desert, which came at the conclusion of a long journey journey across the American continent following a crossing of the Atlantic via the Azores. Planned for a year and a half, the goal of Red Flag is to prepare the French air forces for tactical interoperability. The armée de l'air has taken part in Red Flag on a regular basis since 1981, and nearly all of its combat aircraft types have participated. This time, it was the Rafale's turn, as a prelude to the participation of the Mirage F1CT/CR this fall in Green Flag -- a CAS exercise smaller in scale than Red Flag but which prepares forces for missions currently being undertaken in Afghanistan. And so, from the 7th to the 22nd August, a detachment of four Rafales from the fighter squadron 1/7 "Provence", based in Saint-Dizier, accompanied by a C-135FR tanker, spent ten days taking part in the fourth Red Flag of 2008, certainly the most demanding -- the closest thing to real war, they say -- for a Western pilot. The detachment of 85 personnel, under the command of colonel Philippe Poireault, the team's leader, and of the lieutenant colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, commander of the 1/7, consisted in all of fourteen pilotes, six navigators, an intelligence officer, and 39 mechanics. The detachment consisted of two teams; one for missions during the day and one for missions at night. The roster was rounded out by air commandos responsible for the security of the aircraft. Taking place immediately following a 10-day base exchange at Luke Air Force Base with F-16s and personnel of the USAF's 309th TFS, the goal of the Rafale's first Red Flag was to compare the Rafale, which the squadron has been flying for two years, with combat aircraft of the same generation (called the 4th generation): F-15Es of the USAFE, F-15Ks of the RoKAF, F-15 and F-16 Aggressors, and Su-30MKIs of the IAF. It should be noted that half of the French participants had participated in the Afghan theater in recent months. The four Rafale from the 1/7 (numbers 317, 320, 321, and 325) were all two-seaters, of the F2+ standard (and thus very recent), with a total "swing role" capability and whose simulated armament was composed of Mica IR/EM AAMs and rocket-propelled inertially guided AASM/GPS weapons. The missions were supported by the SLPRM (the SAGEM local mission planning and replay system, a mission-planning computer system). During the ten days of Red Flag, the Rafale Bs undertook a total of four sorties per day, each averaging two hours (1 day strike and 1 night strike), as part of a Blue Air strike package consisting in general of fifty to sixty aircraft. This took place in outside temperatures above 45°C, nearly identical to conditions in Kandahar, Afghanistan. These temperatures were in fact more taxing on the crews and maintainers than on the aircraft; the M88's power reserve at takeoff assuring comfortable levels of thrust at the beginnings of the missions. The aircraft were normally equipped with three large supersonic external tanks of 1200 liters to mimic a heavy war load. The primary preoccupation of the armée de l'air in coming to Nellis AFB with the Rafale was first to verify the proper integration of the aircraft and its systems in a dense and complex environment of allied aircraft, notably with the participation of EA-6B electronic warfare aircraft and F-16CJs performing SEAD. General Jean-Pierre Martin, commander of the combat air forces, who even participated in one of the last Rafale B missions over the Nellis range (which is as large as the territory of Switzerland!) during the August Red Flag, commented: "After a year and a half of preparation, the system is in operational service and has been utilised in operatiosn which demonstrates that the capabilities of the aircraft are at the desired level. The Rafale behaved itself very well and fulfilled its part of the missions, and even did so easily thanks to the combination of its sensors and its networking systems (link 16). We can say that, for the first time, in contrast to previous exercises involving Jaguars or Mirage F1s or 2000, the French flew at Red Flag on an aircraft of comparable generation which had nothing to envy those of its American, Korean, and Indian comrades." Also taking into account the mission profiles undertaken in a theater saturated with surface-to-air and air-to-air threats, the Rafale also very well demonstr5ated its capacity to penetrate enemy air defenses thanks to its very capable weapon system to which the new AASM bomb is not a stranger. In fact, if the different participants were not particula
 
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Softwar    yup - 4th gen 1980s   9/12/2008 2:53:49 PM

We do have a big misunderstanding here and I do not know how to explain to you that what you write and think is light years away from what I believe and wanted to say . I can still apologize to you ~I do~ but I don 't know why I should apologize for as I do not agree with what you think about me .

 

I repeat that I am not anti-american and all my friends at h*ttp://www.steelbeasts.com/ be my witnesses .

Don't even try to apoligize - you wrote the posting.  It was a downright nasty thing to post and it resembles statements made in Tehran and Beijing.  You can waffle, wiggle and squirm - but you wrote it and it says volumes - you want me and my family to burn in a nuclear hell fire. 
So go protest to someone else or maybe ask SYSOP to delete your posting.  Either way doesn't matter to me - you hate America and you made that abundantly clear.
 
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Bluewings12       9/12/2008 3:10:36 PM
Sotwar :
""You just proved my point - the fact is what you wrote was incomplete and incorrect - and no one can or will do this.  Doing it with a single model is useless because each plane is different.  Of course, anyone with an elementary knowledge of radar technology knows that.""
 
??? You know what Gents ,  I sometimes wander why nobody here on Strategypage dare to support the truth when it comes from a Frenchman ... After what Softwar said , you should be many to say 'Hang on Buddy , what BW is saying is true' , but no ... Nobody 's saying anything .
So Please , could you answer that simple and forward question : Did the USA put the 122 F-22s the USAF has into an anechoic chamber for month one by one ?
 
""France needs to join the 5th gen or lose its military aerospace edge""
We 're not going to . We have all the knowledge to carry on or to lead like we actually do in Nuclear Physic Project .
h*ttp://cdsmedia.cern.ch/journal/article?name=CERNBulletin&issue=38/2008&number=-3&category=News%20Articles&ln=en
We also have excellent rockets and our Nuclear technology is the World best .
 
Cheers .
 
 

 
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Bluewings12       9/12/2008 3:15:43 PM
Softwar :
 
""you want me and my family to burn in a nuclear hell fire.""
 
?!? No , I don 't want that ! 
Now , you are accusing me !? Stop this nonsense Softwar while its time . You 're wrong about me .
 
Cheers .

 
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Softwar       9/12/2008 3:17:21 PM

So Please , could you answer that simple and forward question : Did the USA put the 122 F-22s the USAF has into an anechoic chamber for month one by one ?

Yes we did (duh!) but the tests are not for the kind of scatterbrained junk you outlined for your 4th gen aircraft - since our 5th gen is designed with LO up front.  Thus, we don't have to worry about pylons, missile or bombs hanging under the belly and wings.  We don't have to take all those billions of measurements you claim need to be loaded into the HAL-9000 SPECTRA unit so it can compensate for the shortcomings of a 4th gen billboard radar reflection.  We just have to see if there is anything that requires attention on the airframe and then go with it.
You might find that we have been running operational aircraft through such procedures since the B-47.
 
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Phaid       9/12/2008 3:18:13 PM
Not even the mighty USAF with all its money ! But I promise you that the USAF has all the digital signatures of every stealth aircraft they 've been using or will use . 
 
Right so obviously this means the F/A-18E/F is also a stealth aircraft, using a Bragg-cell-based holographic RF image processor and invisible in a 360 degree sphere:
 
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k90/in_a_coma_dial_999/DVD-1326-1.jpg" width="600" height="400" /> 
 
And for that matter, so is the C-130, seen here at the Benefield Anechoic Facility in Edwards Air Force Base:
 
http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/08/anechoic-chamber-2.jpg" width="500" height="301" />
 
??? You know what Gents ,  I sometimes wander why nobody here on Strategypage dare to support the truth when it comes from a Frenchman ... After what Softwar said , you should be many to say 'Hang on Buddy , what BW is saying is true' , but no ... Nobody 's saying anything .
 
That's because you do nothing but spout BS.

 
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Softwar    Direct Quote Redwings   9/12/2008 3:22:22 PM

Softwar :

""you want me and my family to burn in a nuclear hell fire.""
 

?!? No , I don 't want that ! 

Now , you are accusing me !? Stop this nonsense Softwar while its time . You 're wrong about me .

BW wrote:
"One day will come when the Great China will wake up and declare a total War on the United States . The only winner will be Europe and possibly India if the Indians stay quiet . We ~Europeans~ have been there for 3000 years and we 'll last even longer , no worries . And its not the F-22 Raptor who 's going to save you from the Chinese nuclear fire ."
 
Now what's to interpret here?  Did it fail in translation?  I certainly am not mis-reading you since this is a direct quote.  You were PO'd an you wrote something in anger.  You are predicting America will burn and Europe will win by watching.  This is not something a friend posts.  It shows your true colors.

 
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Bluewings12       9/12/2008 3:30:17 PM
Softwar :
""this means the F/A-18E/F is also a stealth aircraft, using a Bragg-cell-based holographic RF image processor and invisible in a 360 degree sphere""
 
No it doesn 't .
The Rafale is not invisible but it has a smaller RCS than the Sup-bug and the ECM suite to hide the few EM spikes the airframe can give away , which is not the case with the SH . Show me where are the ECM AESA antenas  on the SH ...
 
Cheers .

 
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Softwar    Phaid Posted it Redwings   9/12/2008 3:32:22 PM

Softwar :


""this means the F/A-18E/F
is also a stealth aircraft, using a Bragg-cell-based holographic RF
image processor and invisible in a 360 degree sphere""

 

No it doesn 't .

The Rafale is not invisible but it has a smaller RCS than the Sup-bug and the ECM suite to hide the few EM spikes the airframe can give away , which is not the case with the SH . Show me where are the ECM AESA antenas  on the SH ...


I would assume that they are located right next to the photon torpedo tubes just like on the Rafale!

 
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Bluewings12       9/12/2008 3:37:15 PM
Softwar :
""It shows your true colors.""
 
My true color is this one : the One who will strike first will be my enemy . And I don 't care if it 's China or the USA . 
The Leader who will launch the Nuclear Fire first will be the enemy

Cheers .

 
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Phaid       9/12/2008 3:44:21 PM
The Rafale is not invisible but it has a smaller RCS than the Sup-bug and the ECM suite to hide the few EM spikes the airframe can give away , which is not the case with the SH . Show me where are the ECM AESA antenas  on the SH ...
 
Feel free to support that assertion by showing how the Spectra's ECM system on Rafale is any more effective than the Super Hornet's IDECM suite, or how the Rafale's radar signature is any lower than the Super Hornet's.  In your explanation, feel free to explain how numerous fighter aircraft have had no problem seeing and engaging the Rafale in BVR.
 
Here's a hint to save you time: you cannot prove any of that.  All you can say about the Rafale vs Super Hornet airframes in terms of RF signature management is that they are of similar generation and use more or less the same techniques to accomplish their goals.  It is, however, very much a true statement that IDECM is a newer design than Spectra.
 
We've been over this numerous times.  None of your fantasy claims have anything to support them, and you simply have zero evidence, either in terms of science or in real-world exercises, to support your claims of any kind of stealth on the Rafale.
 
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