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Subject: The Rafale's First Red Flag
Phaid    9/3/2008 5:22:21 PM
This is my translation of a new article from TTU Online: hxxp://www.ttu.fr/francais/Articles/rafaleredflag.html The Rafale's First Red Flag For the armée de l'air, two years after its official entry into service at Saint Dizier, the summer of 2008 was the first opportunity to fully test the Rafale in the context of a large-scale war gaming exercise in the Nevada desert, which came at the conclusion of a long journey journey across the American continent following a crossing of the Atlantic via the Azores. Planned for a year and a half, the goal of Red Flag is to prepare the French air forces for tactical interoperability. The armée de l'air has taken part in Red Flag on a regular basis since 1981, and nearly all of its combat aircraft types have participated. This time, it was the Rafale's turn, as a prelude to the participation of the Mirage F1CT/CR this fall in Green Flag -- a CAS exercise smaller in scale than Red Flag but which prepares forces for missions currently being undertaken in Afghanistan. And so, from the 7th to the 22nd August, a detachment of four Rafales from the fighter squadron 1/7 "Provence", based in Saint-Dizier, accompanied by a C-135FR tanker, spent ten days taking part in the fourth Red Flag of 2008, certainly the most demanding -- the closest thing to real war, they say -- for a Western pilot. The detachment of 85 personnel, under the command of colonel Philippe Poireault, the team's leader, and of the lieutenant colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, commander of the 1/7, consisted in all of fourteen pilotes, six navigators, an intelligence officer, and 39 mechanics. The detachment consisted of two teams; one for missions during the day and one for missions at night. The roster was rounded out by air commandos responsible for the security of the aircraft. Taking place immediately following a 10-day base exchange at Luke Air Force Base with F-16s and personnel of the USAF's 309th TFS, the goal of the Rafale's first Red Flag was to compare the Rafale, which the squadron has been flying for two years, with combat aircraft of the same generation (called the 4th generation): F-15Es of the USAFE, F-15Ks of the RoKAF, F-15 and F-16 Aggressors, and Su-30MKIs of the IAF. It should be noted that half of the French participants had participated in the Afghan theater in recent months. The four Rafale from the 1/7 (numbers 317, 320, 321, and 325) were all two-seaters, of the F2+ standard (and thus very recent), with a total "swing role" capability and whose simulated armament was composed of Mica IR/EM AAMs and rocket-propelled inertially guided AASM/GPS weapons. The missions were supported by the SLPRM (the SAGEM local mission planning and replay system, a mission-planning computer system). During the ten days of Red Flag, the Rafale Bs undertook a total of four sorties per day, each averaging two hours (1 day strike and 1 night strike), as part of a Blue Air strike package consisting in general of fifty to sixty aircraft. This took place in outside temperatures above 45°C, nearly identical to conditions in Kandahar, Afghanistan. These temperatures were in fact more taxing on the crews and maintainers than on the aircraft; the M88's power reserve at takeoff assuring comfortable levels of thrust at the beginnings of the missions. The aircraft were normally equipped with three large supersonic external tanks of 1200 liters to mimic a heavy war load. The primary preoccupation of the armée de l'air in coming to Nellis AFB with the Rafale was first to verify the proper integration of the aircraft and its systems in a dense and complex environment of allied aircraft, notably with the participation of EA-6B electronic warfare aircraft and F-16CJs performing SEAD. General Jean-Pierre Martin, commander of the combat air forces, who even participated in one of the last Rafale B missions over the Nellis range (which is as large as the territory of Switzerland!) during the August Red Flag, commented: "After a year and a half of preparation, the system is in operational service and has been utilised in operatiosn which demonstrates that the capabilities of the aircraft are at the desired level. The Rafale behaved itself very well and fulfilled its part of the missions, and even did so easily thanks to the combination of its sensors and its networking systems (link 16). We can say that, for the first time, in contrast to previous exercises involving Jaguars or Mirage F1s or 2000, the French flew at Red Flag on an aircraft of comparable generation which had nothing to envy those of its American, Korean, and Indian comrades." Also taking into account the mission profiles undertaken in a theater saturated with surface-to-air and air-to-air threats, the Rafale also very well demonstr5ated its capacity to penetrate enemy air defenses thanks to its very capable weapon system to which the new AASM bomb is not a stranger. In fact, if the different participants were not particula
 
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Das Kardinal       9/11/2008 6:54:34 AM

You should do a little bit of research about how FACs actually work, and you would quickly discover that GPS and laser-guided weapons are not considered interchangeable.


Which is precisely why LGBs were added to Rafale's arsenal in a "crash-program" just before going to A-stan. Personally, I see AASM and LGBs are complementary. 
As for the accuracy... 2 hits aren't enough to draw a statistical conclusion. OTOH, more weapons have probably been used since, but I could be wrong, I'm not keeping a count... About the 3rd one which Phaid says was a failure, I read it wasn't launched because of changing conditions... not dure about it though. You 'net professionals should verify :-)
One last comment : the Rafale's users (FAF and Navy) are enthusiastic about it and it seems that every operation and exercise underlines some of its qualities. That's not what I'd expect of the lemon described by some posters here. Anyway, France is NOT gonna start another fighter program anytime soon... I mean come on, money is already tight. Not that Dassault is standing idle either with UCAV research.


 
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Softwar       9/11/2008 9:26:56 AM


Softwar , you said :



""France has a 4th gen fighter with limited capability""

 I then said :


""You must be joking mate ...""

Your answer is :


""No joke - just the facts -""

 

No . You are still joking and there is not a single fact to back you up , but there are plenty of facts to make you wrong .


I 'm not gonna go again on what the Rafale can do but as I noticed earlier :


""Also taking into account the mission profiles
undertaken in a theater saturated with surface-to-air and air-to-air
threats, the Rafale also very well demonstrated its capacity to
penetrate enemy air defenses""

 In an exercise like Red Flag , it is probably the best comment I 've ever heard about a swing-role Fighter .""

 

The Indian SU-30 is a fourth generation Fighter , do I have to remind you of what happened to them at Red Flag ? They can say whatever they want about a pseudo fog of war regarding their systems (?) , they 've been hammered by Ground Defenses . The SU is a barndoor a la F-15 and its ECMs ,  ECCMs , weapons systems , etc , are worthless .


Which is not the case of the Rafale .


I would like to see a US striker bomber , like the SH doing the kind of stuff Rafale did , but in Tiger Meet with the European Aggressors. That would show something to be praised for ... Until then , your only option is to get a working F-35 .


 


""Rafale is a 1980s design that is rapidly aging into an obsolete * in aviation history.""


You must be out of your mind Softwar , you ' re surely is !

Listen to me mate : as it stands , the Rafale is the most promissing of the European Fighter because it is already the best .


Only the US F-35 will match it as a swing-role Fighter and not before few years . Until that time , the Rafale will have matured and will be as deadly as it supposed to be .


I see several nations placing their bets already with billions of dollars - none of it is going to Rafale.  Thus, it is more than clear to anyone with sense that the plane is a commercial flop and an unloved duck except at home.
Once again - the number of 5th gen projects already under way clearly shows that Rafale is a dead end - 1980s design - outclassed by operational aircraft flying today and very overpriced.  It will stay in service in France but unlikely to exceed more than 200 in total production - even the recent Paris White paper admitted as much.

I am as much a patriot as anyone - but you simply have to recognize that simple fanboy enthusiam and pure patriotism do not change the numbers.  It is in the best interst of France that it start a new 5th gen fighter program at once - or risk being left with little or no market share.
 
Do us all a favor - encourage Dassault to go for a new design and - this is very important - get a life.
 
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Bluewings12       9/11/2008 10:37:59 AM
Softwar , while posters like Phaid (and few others) know what they talk about and bring facts to support their view , you simply don 't .
 
Maybe you think that I 've got some kind of personal things against you ~which is not the case~ because you keep coming at me with your usual BS . Yes Softwar , you 're talking rubbish and I 'm sure that you 're aware of , which is even worse !
I can demolish everything you said in your last post with ease .
 
""I see several nations placing their bets already with billions of dollars - none of it is going to Rafale.  Thus, it is more than clear to anyone with sense that the plane is a commercial flop and an unloved duck except at home.""
 
First , you do not rate an Aircraft by its sales rate . Everybody knows that but you it seems . We could go why the USA don 't want Rafale to be sold but in another thread , let 's just say that the USA are ready to make absolutly no profits on sales of second hands Fighters just to avoid France and Dassault to get a sale . You did it twice already , in Singapore and in Marocco .
 
""the number of 5th gen projects already under way clearly shows that Rafale is a dead end""
No it is not . I already explain multiple times that France does not have a single possible enemy who 's using what you we call a 5th generation aircraft .  Rafale is clearly better than the updated Russian Fighters who are the only possible jets France could face . Surely , if France and Pakistan went to war (??!) , the Paki F-16s wouldn 't stand a chance and the Saudi Typhoons would be in a hell of troubles .
 
""outclassed by operational aircraft flying today""
Nope . No operational fighter ~bare the Raptor~ outclass the Rafale . To start with , no other operational fighter has the sensor-fusion , sensor suite and 360deg awareness of the Rafale . Then , the RBE2 AESA is operational and sleeps in boxes , ready to be plugged on the Rafale when the money will be there , same with the Damoclès pod .
The Rafale did show some of its qualities during Red Flag , including its excellent warfare suite and its unique weapon system as well as the quality of our Pilots . Where is the RAF and why they do not participate at Red Flag when everybody knows that the British Pilots are also first rate ? Well ?..
I tell you : they have no operational aircraft yet who can participate in a decise manner within the parameters imposed at Red Flag . The Indians tried and they did get hammered . That 's 2 aircrafts (SU-30 and Typhoon) you can write off for the time being . The Gripen is still an unknown quantity . The US Aircrafts are still doing the job as expected but again , nothing special or "amazing" to show of (where was the F-22 ? Is the USAF so worried about their supposed unbeatable Fighter ?) .
 
""and very overpriced""
Wrong . The Rafale is priced in between 48 and 55 millions of Euros , depending on the block . As an exemple , the Marocco price did include weapons , "help line" and repairs as well as training of the personals . Don 't just read the news , dig a bit into the official sites and you 'll see that I 'm right while you 're wrong .
 
""it will stay in service in France but unlikely to exceed more than 200 in total production""
Wrong again . That 's more than that just for the French Forces and we still can sell a couples around .
 
""It is in the best interst of France that it start a new 5th gen fighter program at once""
We have absolutly no need for a 5th generation Fighter , our 4.75 (!) generation Rafale is plenty good enough , thank you .
Next , we 'll go with armed drones .
 
""get a life""
I 've got a life and a pretty good and enjoyable one , thanks to myself and God .
 
Cheers .

 
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Softwar       9/11/2008 11:27:40 AM

Softwar , while posters like Phaid (and few others) know what they talk about and bring facts to support their view , you simply don 't .

 

Maybe you think that I 've got some kind of personal things against you ~which is not the case~ because you keep coming at me with your usual BS . Yes Softwar , you 're talking rubbish and I 'm sure that you 're aware of , which is even worse !


I can demolish everything you said in your last post with ease .


 


""I see several nations
placing their bets already with billions of dollars - none of it is
going to Rafale.  Thus, it is more than clear to anyone with sense that
the plane is a commercial flop and an unloved duck except at home.""

 

First , you do not rate an Aircraft by its sales rate . Everybody knows that but you it seems . We could go why the USA don 't want Rafale to be sold but in another thread , let 's just say that the USA are ready to make absolutly no profits on sales of second hands Fighters just to avoid France and Dassault to get a sale . You did it twice already , in Singapore and in Marocco .


 


""the number of 5th gen projects already under way clearly shows that Rafale is a dead end""

No it is not . I already explain multiple times that France does not have a single possible enemy who 's using what you we call a 5th generation aircraft .  Rafale is clearly better than the updated Russian Fighters who are the only possible jets France could face . Surely , if France and Pakistan went to war (??!) , the Paki F-16s wouldn 't stand a chance and the Saudi Typhoons would be in a hell of troubles .

 


""outclassed by operational aircraft flying today""

Nope . No operational fighter ~bare the Raptor~ outclass the Rafale . To start with , no other operational fighter has the sensor-fusion , sensor suite and 360deg awareness of the Rafale . Then , the RBE2 AESA is operational and sleeps in boxes , ready to be plugged on the Rafale when the money will be there , same with the Damoclès pod .


The Rafale did show some of its qualities during Red Flag , including its excellent warfare suite and its unique weapon system as well as the quality of our Pilots . Where is the RAF and why they do not participate at Red Flag when everybody knows that the British Pilots are also first rate ? Well ?..


I tell you : they have no operational aircraft yet who can participate in a decise manner within the parameters imposed at Red Flag . The Indians tried and they did get hammered . That 's 2 aircrafts (SU-30 and Typhoon) you can write off for the time being . The Gripen is still an unknown quantity . The US Aircrafts are still doing the job as expected but again , nothing special or "amazing" to show of (where was the F-22 ? Is the USAF so worried about their supposed unbeatable Fighter ?) .

 


""and very overpriced""

Wrong . The Rafale is priced in between 48 and 55 millions of Euros , depending on the block . As an exemple , the Marocco price did include weapons , "help line" and repairs as well as training of the personals . Don 't just read the news , dig a bit into the official sites and you 'll see that I 'm right while you 're wrong .

 


""it will stay in service in France but unlikely to exceed more than 200 in total production""

Wrong again . That 's more than that just for the French Forces and we still can sell a couples around .

 


""It is in the best interst of France that it start a new 5th gen fighter program at once""

We have absolutly no need for a 5th generation Fighter , our 4.75 (!) generation Rafale is plenty good enough , thank you .


Next , we 'll go with armed drones .

&
 
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Bluewings12       9/11/2008 12:11:45 PM
Softwar , my understanding of the situation is the following :
You know that the Rafale is a very good Aircraft but you don 't wanna hear a thing .
 
If it 's fine by you ~and I don 't think it is ~ it 's not by me .
You just can 't bash freely a perfectly good aircraft just because it is not US made . All your BS about pseudo 5th generation prototypes are not working with me . The PAKFA does NOT exist , the J-13 is a joke , the Super Gripen looks very promising as the F-35 , but they still paper planes or under progressive and slow testing .
Rafale is there now and is competing on the operational level , don 't mix apples and oranges .
 
""its a 4th gen rehack of a 1980s design""
Poor you ... The airframe in itself is a true 5th generation and the best canard concept amongts the canard contenders . It is the stealthiest canard design , sensor-fusion is a true 5th generation , warfare suites are in the top 3 , armory is no sloutch and it 's probably the best flyer around as a swing-role Fighter .
Are you blind or just being stupid ?
 
""I already trashed your posting on how Rafale can hide because you take a model into a RF chamber and then put the resulting data into SPECTRA.  You post was total BS and you know it because you NEVER bothered to reply - as you often do to others.""
You DIDN 'T trash (?) anything . What I said stands and until you learn what you 're talking about , I 'm not gonna add anything to what I 've said .
 
""You need to move on.  You need a new design or you will get left behind. ""
I already said that the Rafale coupled with armed drones is the futur of the FAF .
 
Cheers .

 
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Softwar       9/11/2008 1:09:25 PM

Softwar , my understanding of the situation is the following :

You know that the Rafale is a very good Aircraft but you don 't wanna hear a thing .

 

If it 's fine by you ~and I don 't think it is ~ it 's not by me .


You just can 't bash freely a perfectly good aircraft just because it is not US made . All your BS about pseudo 5th generation prototypes are not working with me . The PAKFA does NOT exist , the J-13 is a joke , the Super Gripen looks very promising as the F-35 , but they still paper planes or under progressive and slow testing .

Rafale is there now and is competing on the operational level , don 't mix apples and oranges .


 


""its a 4th gen rehack of a 1980s design""

Poor you ... The airframe in itself is a true 5th generation and the best canard concept amongts the canard contenders . It is the stealthiest canard design , sensor-fusion is a true 5th generation , warfare suites are in the top 3 , armory is no sloutch and it 's probably the best flyer around as a swing-role Fighter .


Are you blind or just being stupid ?

 


""I already trashed your
posting on how Rafale can hide because you take a model into a RF
chamber and then put the resulting data into SPECTRA.  You post was
total BS and you know it because you NEVER bothered to reply - as you
often do to others.""

You DIDN 'T trash (?) anything . What I said stands and until you learn what you 're talking about , I 'm not gonna add anything to what I 've said .

 


""You need to move on.  You need a new design or you will get left behind. ""

I already said that the Rafale coupled with armed drones is the futur of the FAF .

 

Cheers .








Let's go point by point shall we?

 
Point one -
Several nations are investing in 5th gen aircraft because they know that is their only alternative to being shot out of the sky.  France - on the other hand - insists on staying with Rafale and not investing in its future industry.  This kind of short-sighted policy drives up costs, and puts you BEHIND the rest of the world.  You need to face the fact that this is simple economics and aviation branches world wide are consumers - if they don't buy your product - you are doomed.  Right now - they are looking ahead at when their needs are - and making financial decisions - like Singapore, South Korea, Japan, Morrocco etc....  None of these players selected Rafale.
 
Point two -
Rafale is a 4th gen aircraft period - the end -fin.  You can keep putting .4, .5, .75 behind the 4 but its still a 4th gen plane.  It hangs its bombs and tanks on pylons danging in the airstream - causing drag and reflecting radar returns like billboards in Las Vegas.  There is no question - it was designed in the 1980s, with 1980s computing power - the first prototype flew in 1986.  It has taken you since 1986 to push it into the present form - the same basic airframe from the original design along with the same 1980s engine technology.  The first production run did not begin until 1999 - nearly 20 years after the first designs.
 
Point three -
As I noted - while tearing apart your little SPECTRA and chamber pot readings posting - you have to take readings from every angle, in every flight mode, in every environmental variation, with every warload ON EVERY SINGLE plane individually.  And you have to redo that each time you remove a panel, add a bolt, change a tire, hang a bomb, change the pilot etc... In short, your posting was pure baloney (a sausage of poor quality).  The fact remains that it was silly to even post that and thus - your lack of a coherent response is either a demonstration of how little you know or an admission that you were wrong.
 
Point four -
Armed
 
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Bluewings12       9/11/2008 4:35:49 PM
Well written post Softwar , but unfortunatly full of misconceptions and mistakes .
 
You still don't get the French needs . Why that ? Why don 't you understand the French needs ?
I tell you : you forget that France is part of a bigger Force called Europe .
Then , you also forget that France hasn 't got the USA 's budget . We do not have the money to buy the 5.5 generation aircraft Dassault could make . Is that clear enough for you Softwar ?
Europe cannot be threatened anymore as an entity because no one in this World has the power to invade .
So , Europeans decided to join force , to restrict Defense budgets and to share the best we have , and so far we are 27+ Nations to agree on this . Europe is already the biggest Alliance the World has ever seen .
It is why many of us ~Europeans~ clearly see why the USA are acting the way they do , you 're simply deeply worried about Europe and Her possible alliance with the Eastern blocks , including Russia . That alone goes against your plans for the war on combustible fuels (Oil and Gas) .
We 're not fools ...
 
One day will come when the Great China will wake up and declare a total War on the United States . The only winner will be Europe and possibly India if the Indians stay quiet . We ~Europeans~ have been there for 3000 years and we 'll last even longer , no worries . And its not the F-22 Raptor who 's going to save you from the Chinese nuclear fire .
 
That being said , you totally underestimate the Rafale and there is not much I can do about ...
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
 
 
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Bluewings12       9/11/2008 5:53:47 PM
Softwar , a couple more things if you don 't mind . I quote you :
""It hangs its bombs and tanks on pylons danging in the airstream - causing drag and reflecting radar returns like billboards in Las Vegas.""
If it was the case , it wouldn 't have penetrated the Air Defenses in Red Flag and in Tiger Meet .
I promise you , we did not cast any invisibility spell :-)
 
""you have to take readings from every angle, in every flight mode, in every environmental variation""
That 's true and has been done .
 
""with every warload ON""
That hasn 't been done as I said before .
 
""In short, your posting was pure baloney (a sausage of poor quality).  The fact remains that it was silly to even post that and thus - your lack of a coherent response is either a demonstration of how little you know or an admission that you were wrong.""
 
lol ! Coming from you , it 's you who 's looking like a sausage ! 
Tell me one thing Softwar , would you , please ?
How can a poor Rafale  made in the 80s with a poor airframe , poor ECMs and poor weapons do so good in NATO 's excercises ??? We must have paid all the refferees !
 
Can 't you see that your accusations are not holding water ? You can post every BS you can find on the Net , the Operational capabilities of the Rafale are now well proven even without the  LGB pod and without the RBE2 AESA .
You can say whatever you want , the Rafale can defend itself very well against ground and air targets , fullfill its mission and come back alive and untouched . I say again : try that with a F-16 , F-15 or SH over Europe and you 'll fail .
 
Cheers .

 
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Phaid       9/11/2008 6:31:08 PM
If it was the case , it wouldn 't have penetrated the Air Defenses in Red Flag and in Tiger Meet .
I promise you , we did not cast any invisibility spell :-)
...
How can a poor Rafale  made in the 80s with a poor airframe , poor ECMs and poor weapons do so good in NATO 's excercises ??? We must have paid all the refferees !
 
And once again you demonstrate your total lack of understanding of real-world air operations.  The Rafale didn't do any of this stuff in isolation.  In Red Flag the Rafales had support from SEAD aircraft and EW aircraft and AWACS and were part of a package of 40-50 other tactical platforms working together.  What the exercises show is that Rafale works well enough in a network-centric environment to carry out its own specific missions successfully.  And that's all.
 
As far as your drivel about the other participants, and non-participants, again you simply speak from ignorance.  The British participate in Red Flag exercises at least once a year, often twice or more.  The Indians, despite operating with self-inflicted handicaps, did so well on their first time at Nellis that they have been asked to come back as regular participants.  And F-22s have participated at Red Flag before, with unprecedented success.  But each exercise emphasizes different things, and the challenge here was to get U.S., South Korean, Indian, and French aircraft of roughly equal generation working together.
 
The French can be proud that, as General Martin said, the French finally came to the exercises with an aircraft that was not markedly inferior to the others, and performed well.  But your constant claims that the Rafale in any way "outclassed" all of the other participants is just fanboy nonsense.
 
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violentnuke       9/11/2008 7:21:38 PM
The french always have those buzz words to make them look so special and futuristic, like "flux tendu" and "sensor fusion"
 
I don't know if "flux tendu" is about Six Sigma type management or DHL delivery. I think impressive is the Shock and Awe stuff, whereby two F117 are programed to shoot two bombs from two different airplanes each, arriving within seconds or minutes of each other.
 
As for sensor fusion and OSF, well, the Apache has been having extensive experience and development in the program, and in the same way the airforce's use of the sniper pod's still classified due to its high range and precision.
 
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