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Subject: Rafale F2 vs F-16 Blk52 , 6-2 on the 1st day
Bluewings12    8/2/2008 6:54:12 PM
Recently , the USAF invited some Rafale F2s to do some advanced dogfighting against some F-16s Blk 52 . It was a one v one confrontation repeated multiple times . The drill did last 3 days . The French and the Americans pilots had to find each other in a big portion of sky (100x100 km/square), then close in and go dogfighting . The French Airforce only released the results of the first day : 6-2 in favor of the Rafale . It has been on the French news on the main TV channel TF1 . Video : h*tp://videos.tf1.fr/video/news/0,,3931177,00-contre-rafale-vrai-faux-combat-.html Quick translation of the video (the good bits): French pilot : " we 're going to separate in the zone and then try to find each other , one Rafale and one F-16 , then go do WVR . We feel that the USAF is very curious about the Rafale and we think that they know what they are up against , so I think that we 're going to bluff them " Second French Pilot talk : " It went well , the F-16s were very cool to fight against and we managed to shootdown them from time to time , it was good " Commentator : "The Americans admit that they have been impressed by the French fighter " The USAF pilot : " The Rafale is an aircraft with unique capabilities which can be flown in a very aggressive manner , more than the F-16 . But you know , the most important is the capabilities of the pilot (!)" ***************** I think that sums up a lot , BUT I remind you that the Rafale pilots are not allowed to use active jamming during drills with Allies (SPECTRA and OSF have only been used to find the opponent). It also shows that the APG-68(v9) radar (with a quoted range of 300km )doesn 't give an adge to the Falcon against the PESA RBE2 and the "discret" RCS of the Rafale . It also shows that MICA is a very good dogfighting missile and does its job and it also shows that Rafale is more manoeuvrable than the F-16 Blk52 (which is the best dogfighther that the USAF has) . I dare to say that if SPECTRA was used to its full extent (active jamming), the result would have been 6-0 . Cheers .
 
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Nichevo       8/3/2008 11:45:36 AM

I was sure to get some bitter comments and responses flirting with bashing and it 's the case .

 
As ye sow, so shall ye reap.  


smitty , the F-16 might be a 30 years old design but it is still the yardstick in the USAF for dogfighting , it can easily beat the Eagle and the SH cannot have a chance in hell agaisnt the Falcon . Furthermore , how many times US posters wrote that the F-16 could outclass the Rafale (and the Mirage) in dogfighting with its superior radar (?) , superior thrust (?) , superior agility (?) and superior missiles (?) . SP is full of these posts ...

 

 

Well , what say you now ?

Well, if we REALLY knew the MICA was so hot, we'd have dead pilots.  I assume these were administrative launches with preselected specs.
 

DA , stick to your Bradleys and Strikers and don 't come to me with your usual nonsense . In fact , it 's you who 's trolling , not me . The exercise was held by the USAF and the rules were simple : find each other and fight on one v one .

So , cut the crap .
 
 
 Simple, eh?  Simple like your gasconnade.  You just got finished telling us there were rules on the use of jamming, and there are probably many more you don't know or don't, frankly, understand.  So the best you can do is to have a few days of feeling glorious till full analysis is provided.
 
 
 
But let's treat your claims as the truth (why not?).  You also note the AdA only released the first day's results.  I am free to assume that AdA got whipped Days 2 and 3.
 
But still, it sounds like you might have a nice First Day of War.  Maybe not so hot on the SDOW, etc.
 
 
 Hey, I'm sure chicks dig the uniform anyway, so it's all good...
 

 
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Phaid       8/3/2008 1:17:34 PM
A little bit of reality checking to dispel Bluewings' usual fiction:
 
The F-16 unit in question is the 309th FS from Luke AFB.  They fly the F-16C/D Block 25, not the Block 52.  These are not even CCIP aircraft, much less Block 52 level.  They are the oldest F-16s in US service with the weakest thrust to weight ratio and the oldest systems.  The only units that still fly the 25 are ANG and training units.
 
The fighting is entirely WVR, so things like Spectra and radars don't really come into play.  There is no comparison of radars and all the nonsense about "discret" airplanes and inferior PESA radars is irrelevant.
 
The pilots in the article clearly explain how the exercise works.  The two aircraft fly out together, separate but remain in visual range, and then go for the merge.  It's strictly classic dogfighting.  Note that the air to air component is just one part of this exercise.  The goal of the Rafales is to learn to work with the USAF in preparation for Red Flag here, so the Rafales will also be taking part in joint air to ground missions and the like.
 
To be honest I would have expected an aircraft like the Rafale with its vaunted dogfighting capabilities to suffer zero losses.  Considering we're talking about geriatric F-16s built in 1984 against airframes that are 20 years newer, I'm not impressed. 
 
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RaptorZ       8/3/2008 2:27:19 PM
I still find this interesting, and so what if BW has some pride in the events that took place.   True that we do not know the extent of the rules etc, but the fact of the matter it was 6-2.   Furthermore, just because nothing was said in day 2 and 3 could be b/c the Raf got smoked or it could be that the American's asked for the results to be kept silent.   Either way, USAF is quite capable and it's good to see that an ally is capable, after all, the French were going up against the best AF in the world, it gives us some quiet confidence that if needed they can go in and complete and compete against other AF's quite well for any future mission we may team up on.
 
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Bluewings12       8/3/2008 4:10:48 PM
That 's it , it has started ... One more thread will go pear shape because of French/BW bashing .
I 'm gonna try to put things back on rails .
 
I 've got nothing to say to DA because he didn 't say anything .
Rocky doesn 't know that the excercise in Luke was a "special" organized by the USAF after the French AdA did ask for it .
These close in engagements were a warm up before Red Flag . The objectives were to compare the operational and tactical capabilities of the French Pilots from the 1/7 "Provence" Squadron which is not a real Fighter unit but but a polyvalent orientated wing , understand that they 're not an Interception Squadron . Then , the F-16s involved were not Blk 52 as I said earlier (my mistake and I apologize for it) but Blk 25 , 40 and 50 . Phaid has it wrong too .
Link :
ht*p://www.defense.gouv.fr/air/base/breves/2008/juillet/des_rafale_a_luke_aux_etats_unis
 
The exercise had nothing to do with the rules employed at Red Flag  , as I understand from some French military forums , it was a free fight where both sides could use whatever tactics or hardware they wanted , with all the usual safety rules applying . That should please Nichevo .
 
Phaid is also not doing his work properly :
The 309th Squadron is leaded by Lt Col Peter F. Davey and  the Squadron purpose is  (I quote) :
 Mission: Provide the finest single-seat, single-engine F-16 fighter pilots for the combat Air Forces and produce top quality F-16 instructor pilots as well as training the world's finest fighter pilots and maintenance technicians.
They 're using Blk 42 F-16s .
 
Raptor did get the point of the drill , train together for futur missions , as N. Sarkozy promissed .
 
The whole point of my first post was to provide infos and to show that the Rafale is not a "eurocluck" as Herald like to call it so trivialy .
 
As much as the Typhoon is full of bugs and has a very poor airframe (from the very word of some people at EADS) , the Rafale is now maturing very well and is doing its bits alongside the US Fighters over A-Stan , dropping missiles on the talibans which are not even in the US inventory (AASM-2) .
 
Is it so hard for some of you to admit the quality of our latest airplane ? Myself , I 've got nothing to do with it (the Rafale) , call me a wanker if you like but stop bashing the Rafale for God sake !
As I type , there is probably no better aircraft in the World capable to do a polyvalent mission  as well as it does .
F-22 has almost no AtG capabilities , the F-35 doesn 't exist yet , the Typhoon is , well ... late and average . The only decent contenders are the latest SHs and the old F-16s . The SU-35s & Co are an unknown quantity , furthermore they have NO combat experience AT ALL .
It would be nice if you could think , discuss and write in a decent manner and use a appropriate tone , thanks .  I did not attack anyone personaly , so I expect some kind of politeness .
If you cannot debate in a fairplay manner , get lost .
 
Phaid , as much as I respect you (you know it) , I disagree with you . A 3 to 1 ratio is a spanking . Let me remind you that the Pilots of the 309th are not Irakis , Syrians or Pakistanis . They 're the 309th . That means that the French Pilots of the 1/7 "Provence" are to be accounted for and I as said earlier they are not specialists of the dogfight .
 
Cheers .
 

 


 

 
 
 

 
 

 
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DarthAmerica       8/3/2008 4:37:45 PM


A 3 to 1 ratio is a spanking . Let me remind you that the Pilots of the 309th are not Irakis , Syrians or Pakistanis . They 're the 309th . That means that the French Pilots of the 1/7 "Provence" are to be accounted for and I as said earlier they are not specialists of the dogfight .


Cheers .


Not that I agree with any of your nonsense assessments. However, assume in an actual shooting war with an F-16 blk 25 or F-16 blk 25 "like" aircraft. We are talking about a plane with a ~$20 to $30 million USD price tag, or 1/3 of the cost of a Rafale. How many Rafales could the CdG lose before becoming combat ineffective? 3 to 4? with a compliment of 10. Twice that for 20? Consider that you could not sortie all the Rafales at anyone time. Thats not very good. Considering the cost I'd like to see at least 2-3x that. Again though, nothing about this DACT training suggest any of BW conclusions are appropriate.


-DA
 
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Bluewings12       8/3/2008 4:44:05 PM
DA , for God sake , stop your nonsense .
We 'll never be at War .
 
Can 't you stick to the matter at hand ?
 
Cheers .

 
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RockyMTNClimber    bluing reply   8/3/2008 4:47:33 PM
Rocky doesn 't know that the exercise in Luke was a "special" organized by the USAF after the French AdA <bluing
 
Red Flag is what it is. School time for a wide variety of air warfare scenarios. France writes a check to the US DOD and attends classes. Whether or not anybody "scores" on a given day is completely irrelevant. It is about what your staff, Sr. Officers, and pilot leaders take home from the scenarios and debriefs that will tell you whether or not your money is well spent. Your pilots could ace every air to air engagement and absolutely fail the courses. If the "Luke" excersize was meant to be special I'd be very suspect about drawing conclusions. The Red Flag instructor teams get any outcome it wants.
 
This isn't a fracking soccer match you moron. Your planes aren't even the focus of the curriculum.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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Bluewings12       8/3/2008 4:48:01 PM
Sorry , I replies a bit quickly .
 
There are no Blk "X" F-16 driven by non US Pilots in the World who can match the French Pilots onboard Rafale .
 
Cheers .

 
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Bluewings12       8/3/2008 4:53:16 PM
Rocky , you are ignorant , bitter and a plague .
I quote you :
""Your planes aren't even the focus of the curriculum.""
 
It was the very purpose of the USAF to test the Rafale F2 . The USAF said it very clearly .
You 're underestimating your AirForce ...
 
Cheers .


 
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Claymore       8/3/2008 5:31:44 PM



As I type , there is probably no better aircraft in the World capable to do a polyvalent mission  as well as it does .


Can it laser designate its own bombs?
 
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